Are you all just technical? What is technical?

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I read it. If I hadn't already been in a BP&W it might have put me off trying one on. While the language in that book may have been toned down, it is still too preachy for me.

Same here... I was really looking forward to reading this book and I was quite disappointed in the overall "presentation" of the content. Therefore, I'd recommend GUE's "Beginning with end in mind" book. This is a really nice introduction to the GUE/DIR systems (including the equipment) without the drawback of Jarrod's book IMO.
 
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I am pretty much a BP/W diver myself, but I still have an old back inflate BCD that I used to use for single tank diving. I would not hesitate to use it again. With the weight trimmed out between the trim pockets and the hip pockets, it makes for a very comfortable dive. Before I had that, I used a Zeagle Ranger, and I thought it was good, too.

The only exception I take to the original advice you got is the implication that BP/Ws are only for technical diving. They aren't. But that does not mean they are the best thing for everybody.

I'm with boulderjohn on this, I have both and dive both, just depends on the dive I'm going to do.
 
If you keep diving you will end up with a wing. It is NOT a technical diving only - it just end up being there. I have two bcds and one wing - I have only been diving wing in 2012.

It is just so much comfortable - you can hook on stuff in a neater and streamlined fashion.

Keep diving and you will end up with a backplate - only a matter of time. I do agree with part of his answer "BP/W setups allow a lot of customization and they are great for travel or unique needs" but it is not only for techies.
 
copy and pasted this from another BC thread I responded to...

My first
BCD was a Tusa Jacket style (platina evolution). I quickly got tired of the squeeze, and I didn't really find it comfortable. After talking with an ex-combat diver at work (one of the guy that actually stood up the USMC combat diving school in panama city), I decided to look for a back-inflate bc based on his recommendation. I ended up with a Zeagle Ranger. It is a greatBCD, very comfortable, very robust, but it was a little bulky and a little much for my style of diving (single tank, recreational dives). I decided to get a slimmer back-inflate BCD. So I sold the Zeagle and got an Oceanic Exursion. It was a good BC, but I just didn't fall in love with it. I didn't feel like it fit me just right even though it was properly sized, and I still felt like I just had too much gear on. One thing I noticed with back-inflate is that it tends to push you face forward when floating on the surface if you're used to jacket style. To compensate for this , distribute some of your weight to the back trim pockets or lean back slightly or both.

So finally, after hours and hours of research on scubaboard/online/etc I decided
bp/w was the way to go. So I sold the excursion and I got a SS bp, and an oxycheq wing. It was simple, it was comfortable. I was really excited about it just wearing it around the house. Once I got it in the water I liked it even more. No more shifting bcd/tank when i turned/rolled etc. No more bulky gear. The tank seemed fused to my back. I felt like I was snorkeling. No weight belts or weight integrated pockets needed as I didn't need extra weight anymore. Trim was improved, and overall diving was more enjoyable.
 
The tank seemed fused to my back. I felt like I was snorkeling. No weight belts or weight integrated pockets needed as I didn't need extra weight anymore. Trim was improved, and overall diving was more enjoyable.

The effect of feeling that your tank is fused to your back arises from a combination of having the rig properly adjusted, having a crotch strap, and having the correct posture in the water. Properly adjusted shoulder straps are not tight - you should be able to slip in and out of them, even with a bulky suit. The BC is pulled tight onto your shoulders by the crotch strap when you tighten it, "fusing" the system to your back. The tightness of the fit is increased (but not uncomfortably so) when you extend your arms in front of your body in a Superman-like pose as this shifts your muscles (predominately your deltoid and trapezius), effectively elongating your torso. This kind of fit can be achieved by any buoyancy compensation device fitted with a crotch strap. Some properly-adjusted single-tank BCDs can have a "sloppy" feel if there is no anti-roll mechanism (either a single-tank adapter, STA, or a modified wing with "nubs" to prevent/minimize tank movement) which keeps the tank from swaying about.
 
Technically I'm not technical. Although I'm a scientist who dives, I'm not a certified science diver. I use some technical skills in some of the diving I do, but in no way have enough training to state that I am a technical diver. Even 50 years of diving doesn't qualify me. With that said, there are additional skills and techniques common to those certified as technical divers that I may one day acquire as I need them.
 
Are y'all technical?
As a number of excellent posts demonstrate, all the people on SB, and all the people who might recommend consideration of a BP/W, are not by any means 'technical'. So, the most direct answer to yiour question is, 'No.' And, even among those SB divers who have technical training, and do decompression diving, I suspect the vast majority also engage in single cylinder, recreational diving more than double cylinder, 'technical' diving.
how does that relate to the folks recommending HOG regulators and the like?
I don't think it has much, if anything, to do with whether a diver has technical training. Some people prefer HOG gear because of price, some because of perceived performance, some because of ease of user service. And, to take that a step further, away from brands, a diver who uses a regulator with a primary second stage on a long (5' or 7') hose and an alternate second stage on a bungeed necklace is not necessarily technical, either, nor any less mainstream.
His reply: "The people on those forums are all technical. BP/W setups allow a lot of customization and they are great for travel or unique needs, but if you are just starting out you will be happier with a more conventional BCD." . . . He then showed me some Zeagle BCs that he thought were "A better starting point."
Out of curiousity, and not intending to disagree or agree with the shop person who made the statements, did he offer any specific reasons why you might 'be happier starting out with a more conventional BCD', or why the Zeagle BCs he showed you were 'a better starting point'? I have no problem with a knowledgeable person recommending a jacket BCD for a new diver, for example, if s/he provdes some logical reasoning. I usually do not, my specific reasoning being that I fnd a 'soft' or 'hard' BP/W to be a bit more versatile (customized fit, better attachment point for lights, pony bottle, etc). But, that happens to be my view of the equipment world. At least I have a reason, other than 'a poodle jacket is bad', or 'a BP/W is bad', neither of which are particularly informative, or valid, statements.

What I do have issues with is labelling something as 'technical' when it isn't (either as a sales 'pro' or a 'con'). What I do have issues with is someone selling on the basis of what they have in stock, but telling a customer that whatever they don't have is somehow not a good option for them (and, I realize that the shop you visited did have BP/W equipment in stock).

Like a number of posters, I have, and dive with, a jacket BCD (SeaQuest Pro QD), a 'soft' back-inflate BCD (a Zeagle Ranger, and a Dive Rite Transpac), and a 'hard' back-inflate BCD (SS or AL BP/W). All of them work for me. In any / all of them, I can comfortably achieve neutral buoyancy, and good horizontal trim In any / all of them, I can achieve the level of streamlining that I want. The only BCD I have not traveled with is the SeaQuest; both my 'soft' and 'hard' back-inflate BCDs travel well. If I were to add (yet) another BCD to my inventory at this point, it would probably be a Zeagle Express Tech (another 'soft' back-inflate BCD).

As several have said, fit is important. I personally like a BCD with a crotch strap (which my jacket does not have), but the absence of a strap is not a big deal. Also, the size of the wing is important, as is proper weighting.

Among the many useful responses to your OP, a couple of applicable quotes particularly stand out, to me:
TSandM:
"We dive the gear we dive, BECAUSE IT WORKS."
nimoh:
new divers should try different types of equipment to make an informed decision. That is sound advice.
 
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Adjusting "a dozen hog harnesses" is hardly a criteria that would make a BP/W unsuitable for an individual... unless they were some sort of mad kleptomaniac diver who had a severe 'bulimic and binge' eating disorder and consequent weight fluctuations...

I've never taught a course to 12 divers. I never will. However, based on my experience teaching OW classes in BP&W, it'd work out at approx 5 minutes per diver. That said, if there were that many students on a course, I'd just spend an hour running a BP/W fitting workshop for those divers.

If you had 12 divers on a course, and weren't willing to spend an hour helping them understand the ins-and-outs of whatever kit they were using, then you'd probably be running some sort of horrible low-standard sausage factory for divers, eh?

That's 50 minutes of harness adjusting for 10 students, compared to about 2.5 minutes of students slipping into a conventional, easily-adjustable jacket or back-inflate.
 
Why exactly are jacket BCDs "better" for beginners? I never quite worked that out..

IMO, there's three factors:

a. They're a lot more comfortable than Horsecollars, which is what they replaced;
b. They permit a (higher and) more comfortable float position;
c. They continue to have easy/quick adjustment points;

The net sum of the above is that its the fast path to a setup that a novice will feel comfortable with.



I was diving double steel 72s on a plastic backplate with 6 lbs of lead attached to it. I had nothing on my belt, yet the tendency was still to tilt forward. Was I doing something wrong? Maybe. Even probably. However, for various reasons (not just the faceplant thing), I found that the BP/W setup was not right for me. Personal choice. I should have found a way to try one out before buying the wing. I lost almost a hundred dollars when I sold it.

Faceplant a myth? Hmm. Most realistic myth I've ever encountered, then.

You are not alone. I spent nine (9) seasons mucking with my wing trying to get the blessed thing to work as well - - for what I wanted - as my Jacket and Horsecollar BCD predecessors. I’m back in a Jacket now and while it isn’t perfect in all ways, it did reconcile the surface float characteristics that I didn't like the wing for.

There are millions of divers around the world and each one has a slightly (or markedly) different style of diving and the choice of gear will naturally reflect that style.

Agreed, but unfortunately, the small(?) percentage that have tried a wing but found them unsuitable for their needs and have said so, tend to be vigorously criticized by others, frequently with suggestions that they’re guilty of "doing something wrong" and/or are incompetant. The reality is that something probably is different, but the logical fallacy is that different doesn’t automatically equate to being wrong.

I have often heard someone advise a new diver to buy gear that can be used for more ambitious things like tech or cave diving, just in case the newb decides to go that way some time in the future. That's kind of like building a hangar for your Chevy just in case you decide to learn to fly and buy a Cessna one day. IMO, one should get what he or she needs, and will use and enjoy, now and let the future take care of itself.

Very well said, and I find this attitude (that everyone must become a jet fighter pilot) to be disconcerting and quite disappointing, because it carries an assumption behind it that ‘most’ divers eventually go in a particular direction ... with zero substantiating statistics to support their assumption.

Sure, some do go on, but most don't...let's not permit the tail to wag the dog.

My perspective is that if we’re going to be brutally honest with novices and share with them the things that there are statistics for, the situation is quite bleak: there’s better than 50% odds that five years from now, their gear decisions are irrelevant, because they’ve dropped out of the sport. Whatever gear they bought will be sitting in the bottom of a closet, waiting for a garage sale to get rid of. Sorry, but that's the grim reality of this hobby, even before we consider what the percentages of (rec-vs-wreck/tech/cave) of the survivors of that attrition, and how there's stastical skewing of that population on discussion groups.


Having floatation forward of your lungs will prevent "face planting" if the weight is improperly distributed. Think of the moment arm (tau = r x F) between the weight and the weighted center of the sources of buoyancy (your body, your suit, and your wing). The greater the separation between the weights and the weighted center of the sources of buoyancy (i.e., at large r) the greater the tendency to tip (again, for improperly distributed weights).

Actually, having floation forward will do that regardless of weighting distribution. But I neverthless agree even though unfortunately, going into technical discussions of this sort has not been historically well received by much the SB audience, possibly because it has never been seen before in this form.

That leaves you modifying a static condition (weight distribution) with a dynamic condition (buoyancy in the variable-buoyancy parts of the system) though, right? So you are going to trim out differently depending on the inflation of the BCD....and the pressure in your tanks?

I'm trying to picture how that works out. Seems as though an empty tank will push you forward more than a full tank so you will need a fair amount more volume in your BCD, and will be bobbing on the surface like a cork.

Want pictures? Here you go:

http://www.huntzinger.com/dive/sb/BC_physics2a.jpg
http://www.huntzinger.com/dive/sb/BC_physics-centroid.jpg
http://www.huntzinger.com/dive/sb/BC_physics1a.jpg

FYI, no need to look at these links quite yet - I've applied these in the discussions below in their appropriate place.

OTOH if the buoyancy control was very near the tanks (short arm) it seems like it could vary the... 200 cubic inches or so... needed to offset the air in the tank without really changing the overall balance. If the full tanks didn't pitch you forward, the empty tank wouldn't pitch you forward, and you would be able to use the air in your lungs to establish a head-back posture on the surface (just as you do when floating in a swimming pool).

That seems like an argument for the BP/W.

Not quite – you got the moment arm’s directions transposed:

A full tank would be negative and using the first illustration, result in a clockwise (‘face up&#8217:wink: torque. But make it now an empty tank (end of dive) and instead of it pushing down, it is floating up, so it will become a counter-clockwise (‘faceplant&#8217:wink: torque.

Ant to take the next step, if the torque is meaningful requires looking at all of the diver and all of his gear – what it all comes down to is that every piece of negative/positive gear will contribute (detailed weighting example) to where their centroids are for center of mass and center of buoyancy. It is the distance between these two that creates torques that messes things up - - such as the imbalance that we talk about as being ‘trimmed’ during a dive (here's the third one).

Expanding a bit further, it isn’t the absolute difference in location between the two centroids (although this helps): the piece we’re really interested in is the force breakdown of just the “orthogonal to the gravity vector” portion...and the key insight here is that as a diver rotates from horizontal to vertical, this value changes because gravity "moves" (so to speak). What this means is that just as we work to ‘trim’ out our dive while horizontally, we can go through the same exercise for when we’re oriented vertically...and hope (pray) that a change to improve one doesn't mess up the other.

Finally, this all is looking at the problem from a simple ‘static’ condition and not dynamic. Yes, a diver’s breathing will be an input that will perturb the system, and similarly, a diver can also choose to input some energy to counteract any undesired torque. For the latter, the question then can be asked of ‘for just how long?’, as people are not perpetual motion machines. Pesky Laws of Entropy! :)



-hh
 
TSandM said it perfect "we dive the gear we dive because it works"

Now, that doesn't mean that what we all dive will work for you. I have owned a jacket, a back inflate, and a bp/w with a few different wings. All worked for the type of diving I was doing.

Right now I have 3 different BC's that I dive and none of them are a BP/W anymore and its for a very specific reason. First reason is because here in Canada I dive side mount.....BP/W is pretty much junk for side mount.......others have made it work but its not ideal and doesn't work for me...the idea of side mount is flexibility....but i digress. The other 2 I have are back inflate generic BC's.....One I use here in the pool and when I'm helping with students....the idea being is that I want to be diving the same configuration as them. The other one is a nice small back inflate that I use for diving trips to the carrib. I find it much more comfortable then a bp/w. Each has its purpose and each works well.

Would you be happy with a BP/W....sure why not......would you be just as happy with something like a zeagle ranger.....its quite possible. The only real way to know is to try them out and pick what you will be happy with. The only down side is at some point you may want something different, and you will end up buying something different......everyone can suggest to buy something that will last for your whole diving life but it likely won't happen.

As for regs....there is a reason people are all about suggesting hog regulators right now.....and that's the price of them. They are about half the price of other regulators and they perform just as good if not better. They are almost identical to apex regs and apex regs are popular among techies because they will breathe great at 200ft and they will perform in sub-freezing temps. Not to mention HOG is one of the few companies that will teach the end user how to service them and make part kits available to them.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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