Are the Super Wings too much?

[The Kraken]

The guy wants to use a 100# lift wing - geez, just let him and get on with your lives.

 

[Dan Gibson]

I won't use your gases. Here is my example. Consider an 80 cft tank. (Luxfer S080)

80 cft in tank with Air
80 cft * 0.075 lb/ft3 = 6 lb

80 cft of 21/35 in tank
He - 96.71 ft3/lb
1/96.71 = 0.01034 lb/ft3
35% * 80 ft3 * 0.01034 lb/ft3 = 0.29 lb of Helium
O2 - 12.1 ft3/lb = 0.083 lb/ft3
21% * 80 ft3 * 0.083 lb/ft3 = 1.39 lb of O2
N2 – 13.8 ft3/lb = 0.072 lb/ft3
44% * 80 ft3 * 0.072 lb/ft3 = 2.53 lb of N2
Total weight of gas = 0.29 + 1.39 + 2.53 = 4.21 lb

That’s about a 1.8 lb difference in replacing about 35% of the gas with Helium. This is hardly an impractical gas for diving.

When you consider a Luxfer S080 goes from –2 lb to +4 lb bouyant with air, you can see that using 21/35 would reduce the initial negative bouyancy to -0.2 lb. This would definitely ride better in the slipstream. The ending buoyancy will remain the same. You can add a reg to this and yes, the tank will start out a little more negative. It’s still a better situation buoyancy wise than diving with air or nitrox.

This comes back to one of the original arguments that you need a lot of lift for multiple stages. Most won’t carry that many stages. If you do, you better make sure they ride properly in the water or you will have some serious drag issues. How about upping the helium content. Try a mixture such as 10/70. If you run the numbers, you will see the weight of the gas is approximately 2.4 lb. Add a reg to this and you will see that the bottle will be just about neutral at the start of the dive. That will make swimming or scootering a lot easier. Swimming two bottles, you wouldn’t work as hard since the bottle is now more streamlined. It would ride in the slipstream. Scootering, there will be less drag, so you couls go farther.

Yes, I do dive stages. When they are full the butt end hangs down into the slipstream. As the get lighter, they float up and out of the way. As far as picking the correct gas for decompression versus buoyancy, Go back and reread the posts. It was about multiple stages requireing a bigger wing. There is no way you carry several (i.e. more than two 80s) with nitrox and can keep those in the slip stream and make any progress. You will have a much harder time than the guys diving a higher helium content.

Your comment about too much helium just shows you are in the camp that thinks helium is bad and to get off it as soon as possible. I choose to believe otherwise. Helium is good.

Is that with a SS plate or the "trim correcting" Al. item. Dan, have you ever dove with stages? Why would they hang any differently? Maybe you just have too much strap between the bottle and the "D's". Maybe you are in over your head and to dumb to know it.
Closer to neutral? Please quantify this in exact figures given a 18/30 mix vs air in, lets say your 80cuft cylinder at 3400psi? Show your work. By the way, you choose your diving gases to satisfy the dive profile NOT your bouyancy. The reason we don't want a ton of He in our breathing gas is because it is absorbed in "slow compartments" almost 3 times faster than nitrogen thus resulting in additional deco (Henry's Law - before you embarass yourself again). You really don't kow what you are talking about. You are trying to relate your contradictions to diving but they are only contradictions for the sake of defending yourself and hiding your ignorance.

I'm done. Have at it.

 

[Dan Gibson]

Boyle’s states the volume of a gas at a constant temperature varies inversely with the pressure. The corollary is density increases with pressure.

Now, I know it's hard for you, but try and follow me on this. If we take a full flexible container (i.e. a wing) and descend, the volume will decrease and the density of the gas will increase. We know the density of the water. It's in the PADI OW manual. Can one not calculate the displaced volume at any depth and therefore determine the buoyant force? If you can't, you have no business teaching diving at any level.

In order to get back to the original buoyant force on the surface, we have to add gas. Once we get obtain the same volume at depth that we has at the surface, we will have the same volume displaced. This was something missed by one of the original posters. You are just choosing to ignore it.

Hard containers were covered as well in OW. There is no change in volume, therefore the displacement is the same.

You might want to actually learn how to apply these laws before telling people they don't understand them. Reciting a law is of little use if you can't apply it. Yes, it’s all right there in the PADI OW manual. If you didn’t get this, you either chose to ignore it, didn’t understand it, couldn’t apply it or your OW instructor didn’t teach it to you.

Boyle's law examines Ideal Gases NOT the mass of a displaced volume of liquid. The property referred to is "Density".

 

[msandler]

When you consider a Luxfer S080 goes from –2 lb to +4 lb bouyant with air, you can see that using 21/35 would reduce the initial negative bouyancy to -0.2 lb. This would definitely ride better in the slipstream. The ending buoyancy will remain the same. You can add a reg to this and yes, the tank will start out a little more negative. It’s still a better situation buoyancy wise than diving with air or nitrox.

This comes back to one of the original arguments that you need a lot of lift for multiple stages. Most won’t carry that many stages. If you do, you better make sure they ride properly in the water or you will have some serious drag issues. How about upping the helium content. Try a mixture such as 10/70. If you run the numbers, you will see the weight of the gas is approximately 2.4 lb. Add a reg to this and you will see that the bottle will be just about neutral at the start of the dive. That will make swimming or scootering a lot easier. Swimming two bottles, you wouldn’t work as hard since the bottle is now more streamlined. It would ride in the slipstream. Scootering, there will be less drag, so you couls go farther.

Yes, I do dive stages. When they are full the butt end hangs down into the slipstream. As the get lighter, they float up and out of the way. As far as picking the correct gas for decompression versus buoyancy, Go back and reread the posts. It was about multiple stages requireing a bigger wing. There is no way you carry several (i.e. more than two 80s) with nitrox and can keep those in the slip stream and make any progress. You will have a much harder time than the guys diving a higher helium content.

Your comment about too much helium just shows you are in the camp that thinks helium is bad and to get off it as soon as possible. I choose to believe otherwise. Helium is good.

AAAARGHHHHH!!!!! You are a Freaking Joke! I am amazed anyone is willing to take your side. Sure He is good but you haven't clue why and definetly haven't run the tables to see the affects of He on Deco! If you spoke from experience, you'de have nothing to say!!

You are a poser. You need to stop missrepresenting your experience and stop giving advice! ... A 0.2 lb bouyancy difference - surely you realize, especially at depth, a few breaths would negate that value. Have you ever seen an empty tank with reg in the water? (hint: you would have to dive to experience this) they float top down. Regardless, you don't scooter and you don't know how to handle stages.

The shocker is this!!!

Since you insist on giving helium examples in ignorance - high helium content = 70% !!! SEVENTY PERCENT!!! a 10/70 mix is good for about 500 ft. SOME SIXTEEN ATM (though reality is not your concern you should try to stick your initial normoxic example. You may be able to continue fooling people.) Sticking with the 10/70, it beckons the question...

While you are scootering along the Edmond Fitzgerald, with your poorly attached 10/70 stage, and a 55lb wing which happens to contain the equivalent of a quarter of the gas in your 80cuft stage, WHAT THE HECK IS IN YOUR DOUBLES!!!!! :11:
You can forget about slipstream any idea how much gas you will need? lets say your SAC is .6, that means you will need 0 cuft of gas at depth keeping in mind you don't dive.

Here's a little gas blending 101 for you.

When choosing a mix, try to aim for a nitrogen (narcotic) depth of 130ft (standard). Also try to keep P02 at 1.4

Your 21/35 normoxic mix tops out at about 190 feet perhaps you are narc'd at 100 feet but less helium would be better for the dive. Again, run some tables and see for yourself.

I'll tell you what, diving a 100lb wing is a lot more sane then your what you are describing. In other words, you are attacking the use of a 100lb wing and substantiating it with arguments that are far more flawed. Forget the original blunder, even a child understands why he can lift his father in a pool. Christ man, quit while your ahead you Stroke.

 

[msandler]

In order to get back to the original buoyant force on the surface, we have to add gas. Once we get obtain the same volume at depth that we has at the surface, we will have the same volume displaced.

Let me help you here:

We are add air at ambiant pressure to displace an amount of water. The bouyant force is equall to the weight of the water that is displaced. Thats where bouyancy comes from.

 

[The Kraken]

Back to the original question which, if I remember correctly, never even remotely mentioned gas blending . . .

"Obviously the Dive Rite Super Wings would be great for the cave diving, but are they too much for double al 80s?"

I don't think too much is the issue, one should be concerned with "too little".
I would think they would be too much only if you were to encounter a wrapping interference or "taco" effect, or if you were to inflate them fully at depth and try to emulate a hot air balloon.

All you have is a bladder that is capable of being inflated until it gives 100 pounds of lift. This is not saying that one is going to use 100 pounds of lift to ascend.

I don't dive the profiles you guys do, but is 100 pounds too much?

In my opinion, and I set as a qualifier my inexperience in the types of dives disucssed and the protracted dissertations of gas mixing, 100# of lift is not "too much".

 

[Dan Gibson]

Try 2.4 lb difference. You obviously have a hard time reading as well as understanding math and physics.

Wht don't you go tell people like JJ, AG and the likes how bad helium is for you on deco. Are you just following what some deco program tells you? You might consider not penalizing yourself so much for using helium. I think these guys have shown the programs are no where near correct. Next you are going to tell me that I'm going to get bent treating 30/30 like EAN32.

As for stages, try this picture. It's at the start of a dive. Notice the tank hangs lower than at the end of a dive when it rides up.

http://www.gue.com/research/wkpp/gallery/rda_wkp01_99.shtml
The butt of the tank will start to rise as the tank drains.

btw, I don't subscribe to keep at PPO2 of 1.4%. You can go ahead with your best mix BS, but many of us have decided that is too high. We shhot for lower. We also shoot for an END of 100 ft max. I don't care if you choose to narc yourself or make it harder on your body to deco. I'll listen to people like AG and JJ who have done the types of dives you are trying to say you do. My guess is that you do not.

All this coming from someone who admits to making a dive totally overweighted in a wetsuit. Doesn't that just about say all one needs to know about you.

AAAARGHHHHH!!!!! You are a Freaking Joke! I am amazed anyone is willing to take your side. Sure He is good but you haven't clue why and definetly haven't run the tables to see the affects of He on Deco! If you spoke from experience, you'de have nothing to say!!

You are a poser. You need to stop missrepresenting your experience and stop giving advice! ... A 0.2 lb bouyancy difference - surely you realize, especially at depth, a few breaths would negate that value. Have you ever seen an empty tank with reg in the water? (hint: you would have to dive to experience this) they float top down. Regardless, you don't scooter and you don't know how to handle stages.

The shocker is this!!!

Since you insist on giving helium examples in ignorance - high helium content = 70% !!! SEVENTY PERCENT!!! a 10/70 mix is good for about 500 ft. SOME SIXTEEN ATM (though reality is not your concern you should try to stick your initial normoxic example. You may be able to continue fooling people.) Sticking with the 10/70, it beckons the question...

While you are scootering along the Edmond Fitzgerald, with your poorly attached 10/70 stage, and a 55lb wing which happens to contain the equivalent of a quarter of the gas in your 80cuft stage, WHAT THE HECK IS IN YOUR DOUBLES!!!!! :11:
You can forget about slipstream any idea how much gas you will need? lets say your SAC is .6, that means you will need 0 cuft of gas at depth keeping in mind you don't dive.

Here's a little gas blending 101 for you.

When choosing a mix, try to aim for a nitrogen (narcotic) depth of 130ft (standard). Also try to keep P02 at 1.4

Your 21/35 normoxic mix tops out at about 190 feet perhaps you are narc'd at 100 feet but less helium would be better for the dive. Again, run some tables and see for yourself.

I'll tell you what, diving a 100lb wing is a lot more sane then your what you are describing. In other words, you are attacking the use of a 100lb wing and substantiating it with arguments that are far more flawed. Forget the original blunder, even a child understands why he can lift his father in a pool. Christ man, quit while your ahead you Stroke.

 

[Dan Gibson]

No, you don't say. You still have to displace the same volume of water no matter what the depth to achieve the same buoyancy. You just aren't following this at all, are you.

Let me help you here:

We are add air at ambiant pressure to displace an amount of water. The bouyant force is equall to the weight of the water that is displaced. Thats where bouyancy comes from.

 

[-hh]

the 100 lb wing is rated for heavy doubles. I don't own one, ( mine are 60 lb oms)but I see alot of divers with them, there must be something they can be used for?

This could be a game of semantics, depending on just what the Manufacturer is claiming.

For example, if the claim is a 100lb wing with dual bladders, does that mean two 50lb bladders (50+50 = 100), or does it mean two 100lb bladders?

If its the former, then if you need a ~50lbs BC and if you really want your lift redundency in your BC, then you would have dual 50lb bladders and some manufacturers might be inclined to claim its a "100lb" BC, especially if both bladders can be fully inflated simultaneously.

It all just goes to show you how important good communication is.


-hh

 

[cool_hardware52]

This could be a game of semantics, depending on just what the Manufacturer is claiming.

For example, if the claim is a 100lb wing with dual bladders, does that mean two 50lb bladders (50+50 = 100), or does it mean two 100lb bladders?

If its the former, then if you need a ~50lbs BC and if you really want your lift redundency in your BC, then you would have dual 50lb bladders and some manufacturers might be inclined to claim its a "100lb" BC, especially if both bladders can be fully inflated simultaneously.

It all just goes to show you how important good communication is.


-hh

hh,

I have no dog in this fight, but I should point out that the capacity of a wing is set by the outer shell, not by the internal bladders. Even in a non redundant wing, the bladder will be ~20% larger than the outer shell. This prevents the inner bladder from stretching, the shell takes all the tension loads, the bladder is just the air tight element.

If you put a "50lb" bladder in a "100lbs" wing the bladder would be damaged at full pressure, i.e. about the time the OPV opens.

A redundant wing will contain two bladders, each capable of fully filling the shell.

I must say I do find assuming the logic that "100lbs wings must have a legitimate use because people build and sell them"

Regards,


Tobin