AquaSafari
- Thread starter teknitroxdiver
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OP
teknitroxdiver
Contributor
Thank you for your detailed reply, Mr Horn. However I think you still aren't understanding my side of the story fully. There were a lot of points in your post that my viewpoint diverged from, but I'll try to hit the main ones for now:
1. The boat's speed as it passed overhead, and if it backed down: When I first observed the boat, approaching from the north, I was to the left side of it, directly below our flag, and the boat passed overhead at a high rate of speed. The prop was about 8' from me, depending on how much your boat drafts. Then the captain cut the engines, drifted to a stop, and backed down until our flag was 10-20' off it's left side. At all times during our encounter, our flag was on the left (shore) side of the boat. We didn't cross in front of it. As for the boat backing down, I didn't mention this in a later post because it had been covered in the original post and I didn't feel any further clarification was needed. In any case, when the boat first passed overhead, it was most definitely NOT idling!
Morgan was surprised that the flag wasn't tangled, not because it was on the opposite side of the boat as we were, but that the flag was actually bumped by the left side of your boat as it cruised by, then came close again when the boat backed down. Morgan at this point was trying to pull the flag farther from your boat to keep it from getting tangled in your prop.
2. I would like to see you pull a dive flag and keep it straight overhead. Close, yes, but you can't keep it right above you.
3. Imminent risk to life: I believe the part where I said "I kicked hard for the bottom and was able to stay clear of the boat's prop." implied that I had more than a bit of concern for my life at that point. Perhaps I would have been unaffected by the prop, but I didn't get to study hydrodynamics and I wasn't about to take a crash course in the suction a prop may produce.
4. Personal space around the dive flag: I can't speak for Mexican law; however, in the United States, within 300 feet of a dive flag, a boat must maintain no more than the slowest speed that maintains headway and steerage. No personal input there, just the law. This may be different in Mexico, I have no way of knowing that. However, the 10 or 15 knots your boat was doing was NOT minimum headway and steerage speed. If I wasn't headed for the bottom as fast as possible, I suppose I should have video'd the whole thing.
5. We've been over this, but instead of accusing me of being in the park illegally before I could even say anything, and then threatening me, your instructor could have politely told me he had to focus on his students. I understand that, but I didn't exactly read the guy's dive plan before this incident, so I had no way of knowing that he had students with him.
6. The substance of the statement "intentionally endangered my life". I feel this is an accurate statement. The dive flag was there, the boat captain's perfect vision likely saw it, yet he piloted the boat right over it. He has been operating dive boats for a long time, so he knows what a dive flag means: there are divers under it, could be 40' under, could be 1' under. That dive flag is a place where life exists at some point underneath it. Without knowing how deep those divers are, driving the boat over the flag does put those divers at risk.
7. Not being available for the buoy "show" was out of my control: I have prior commitments Tuesday-Thursday mornings starting at 7am. Sorry.
8. Beating your boat from reef to closer to shore: I used a satellite picture to determine how far it is from the point on the reef we started heading in, to where the altercation took place: About 370 feet. You dropped off 12 divers on the reef. Assuming they were VERY fast to get in the water, maybe 8 minutes from when they started into the water until the last one was in. No problem to swim 370 feet in 8 minutes, especially when you're crossing boring sand with nothing to look at.
9. Length of line out: Let's run with your theory of Morgan having too much line out. I'm not sure how that plays into the story, because I was directly below the flag at the end of our group, but let's humor it anyway. My spool has about 60' of line on it. Morgan was at around 20'. It's been a while since I took trig, but I'll give it a shot. If he had all the line out, that's 60 feet, and he's 20' down. He's 67 feet in front of the flag 56 feet. (again, assuming he had all the line out, which is highly unlikely. I'm sure he'll post exactly how much was out). Between him and the flag are our 3 other divers, then there I am, under the flag 10' down.
10. Did my parents know where I was? I don't know...they live about 3000 miles from here. Unless they're telepathic, they probably didn't know. I'm not sure why they would care or what bearing that has on the subject at hand.
11. Thanks for the offer for the dive, however I don't take bribes or anything that would look to others as though you were bribing me. I would probably go on one of your pay trips, but definitely not for free.
Again, thank you for posting. However, I must say, after our breakfast I had a very good feeling about you, and I felt you were remorseful for your employees' actions. But now, I'm not 100% sure that you are.
EDIT: Reefhound brought something to my attention that I had only read part of in my original review of Mr Horns postings, so I'll add a number 12:
12: I do not appreciate being threatened with talk of no freedom of speech and defamation. When you told the story at breakfast about you being charged for defamation by someone else, I was not sure if you were trying to make a point to me or not. I guess you were. If you feel your opinion on this is valid, I suggest you file whatever lawsuit is necessary in Mexico. It would be interesting--perhaps laughable--to see the trial where an American citizen in Mexico as a tourist was charged for posting a list of events (which could be proven factual by somewhere between 4 and 7 witnesses) on a public forum owned by an American, and hosted on American soil. I'm no lawyer, but I don't think a court would even give you the time hear your case.
1. The boat's speed as it passed overhead, and if it backed down: When I first observed the boat, approaching from the north, I was to the left side of it, directly below our flag, and the boat passed overhead at a high rate of speed. The prop was about 8' from me, depending on how much your boat drafts. Then the captain cut the engines, drifted to a stop, and backed down until our flag was 10-20' off it's left side. At all times during our encounter, our flag was on the left (shore) side of the boat. We didn't cross in front of it. As for the boat backing down, I didn't mention this in a later post because it had been covered in the original post and I didn't feel any further clarification was needed. In any case, when the boat first passed overhead, it was most definitely NOT idling!
Morgan was surprised that the flag wasn't tangled, not because it was on the opposite side of the boat as we were, but that the flag was actually bumped by the left side of your boat as it cruised by, then came close again when the boat backed down. Morgan at this point was trying to pull the flag farther from your boat to keep it from getting tangled in your prop.
2. I would like to see you pull a dive flag and keep it straight overhead. Close, yes, but you can't keep it right above you.
3. Imminent risk to life: I believe the part where I said "I kicked hard for the bottom and was able to stay clear of the boat's prop." implied that I had more than a bit of concern for my life at that point. Perhaps I would have been unaffected by the prop, but I didn't get to study hydrodynamics and I wasn't about to take a crash course in the suction a prop may produce.
4. Personal space around the dive flag: I can't speak for Mexican law; however, in the United States, within 300 feet of a dive flag, a boat must maintain no more than the slowest speed that maintains headway and steerage. No personal input there, just the law. This may be different in Mexico, I have no way of knowing that. However, the 10 or 15 knots your boat was doing was NOT minimum headway and steerage speed. If I wasn't headed for the bottom as fast as possible, I suppose I should have video'd the whole thing.
5. We've been over this, but instead of accusing me of being in the park illegally before I could even say anything, and then threatening me, your instructor could have politely told me he had to focus on his students. I understand that, but I didn't exactly read the guy's dive plan before this incident, so I had no way of knowing that he had students with him.
6. The substance of the statement "intentionally endangered my life". I feel this is an accurate statement. The dive flag was there, the boat captain's perfect vision likely saw it, yet he piloted the boat right over it. He has been operating dive boats for a long time, so he knows what a dive flag means: there are divers under it, could be 40' under, could be 1' under. That dive flag is a place where life exists at some point underneath it. Without knowing how deep those divers are, driving the boat over the flag does put those divers at risk.
7. Not being available for the buoy "show" was out of my control: I have prior commitments Tuesday-Thursday mornings starting at 7am. Sorry.
8. Beating your boat from reef to closer to shore: I used a satellite picture to determine how far it is from the point on the reef we started heading in, to where the altercation took place: About 370 feet. You dropped off 12 divers on the reef. Assuming they were VERY fast to get in the water, maybe 8 minutes from when they started into the water until the last one was in. No problem to swim 370 feet in 8 minutes, especially when you're crossing boring sand with nothing to look at.
9. Length of line out: Let's run with your theory of Morgan having too much line out. I'm not sure how that plays into the story, because I was directly below the flag at the end of our group, but let's humor it anyway. My spool has about 60' of line on it. Morgan was at around 20'. It's been a while since I took trig, but I'll give it a shot. If he had all the line out, that's 60 feet, and he's 20' down. He's 67 feet in front of the flag 56 feet. (again, assuming he had all the line out, which is highly unlikely. I'm sure he'll post exactly how much was out). Between him and the flag are our 3 other divers, then there I am, under the flag 10' down.
10. Did my parents know where I was? I don't know...they live about 3000 miles from here. Unless they're telepathic, they probably didn't know. I'm not sure why they would care or what bearing that has on the subject at hand.
11. Thanks for the offer for the dive, however I don't take bribes or anything that would look to others as though you were bribing me. I would probably go on one of your pay trips, but definitely not for free.
Again, thank you for posting. However, I must say, after our breakfast I had a very good feeling about you, and I felt you were remorseful for your employees' actions. But now, I'm not 100% sure that you are.
EDIT: Reefhound brought something to my attention that I had only read part of in my original review of Mr Horns postings, so I'll add a number 12:
12: I do not appreciate being threatened with talk of no freedom of speech and defamation. When you told the story at breakfast about you being charged for defamation by someone else, I was not sure if you were trying to make a point to me or not. I guess you were. If you feel your opinion on this is valid, I suggest you file whatever lawsuit is necessary in Mexico. It would be interesting--perhaps laughable--to see the trial where an American citizen in Mexico as a tourist was charged for posting a list of events (which could be proven factual by somewhere between 4 and 7 witnesses) on a public forum owned by an American, and hosted on American soil. I'm no lawyer, but I don't think a court would even give you the time hear your case.
vshearer
Contributor
Well this has spun around 180 again.
cicopo
Contributor
OK, I hope I have this correct but if not please correct me. The post was originated by a diver with just short of 2400 messages on this board but who is only 18 years old. If that is actually true based on my own approach to life and when I thouht I knew it all he is only 2 to 3 years short of being at the "genious" age. PLEASE NOTE I am not trying to disrespect you (Teknitroxdiver) but those that thought because you had such a high message count that you MUST be believable. With that out of the way I (and because likely a lot of others also did due to that message count) thought you were most likely a seasoned diver with a high dives logged count but after looking again I don't see a count in your profile. Even after all of that a very well respected owner of a very busy dive op found the time to to meet with you, bring his employees to meet with you, and even though you are not even considered an adult treated you with great respect by overlooking your inexperience totally & he subjected both his business & reputation to an internet witch hunt but he didn't loose his cool. HATS OFF & Congratulations to resolving what could easily have become a business nightmare. I sincerly urge TND to make certain that any other message board running this realizes the final outcome & just how it was arrived at.
OP
teknitroxdiver
Contributor
I'm not especially experienced, I have about 165 dives. I'm not sure where you're getting the "not even considered an adult" part from, everywhere I've been 18 is considered "adult". Not that it matters, my postings on this have mostly been a simple synopsis of the events, with no "mature thinking" required on my part. As for a final outcome, I think we're still pretty far from that.
BHB ScubaTroll
Contributor
Aqua Safari
Registered
- Messages
- 54
- Reaction score
- 25
Excellent answer Tek.
I will translate it into Spanish for all my Captains.
I was not there, but Aqua Safari is not done discussing this,
and your post 312 will be the basis of discussion. This is what I needed.
I apologize for my prop 8 feet from you.
Buoy expo, anytime you want with 2 days notice.
I offer you five my best rate for Paradise in the afternoon.
I hope my attempt for levity about a bribe did not offend you.
As i said previously; you are the kind of clients I wish i had more of.
Sinceramente,
Aqua safari
Bill Horn
I will translate it into Spanish for all my Captains.
I was not there, but Aqua Safari is not done discussing this,
and your post 312 will be the basis of discussion. This is what I needed.
I apologize for my prop 8 feet from you.
Buoy expo, anytime you want with 2 days notice.
I offer you five my best rate for Paradise in the afternoon.
I hope my attempt for levity about a bribe did not offend you.
As i said previously; you are the kind of clients I wish i had more of.
Sinceramente,
Aqua safari
Bill Horn
I'm a bit upset to see how this has suddenly changed. I thought both sides had talked it out, apologized, forgiven, etc. and moved on with it. I thought the latest two long posts by Aqua Safari were unnecessary and over the top. I'm confused at all the thanks they received. Although I was also kinda wierded out when he posted the captain's medical prescription. One would think this is a criminal murder trial or multi-million dollar legal case.
I thought they had it worked out so why then come back and analyze the sequence of events and assign blame as if trying to score points and win (what's with all the strike ones), despite the disclaimer otherwise? When I saw all the paragraphs of "Tek did this" and "Tek said that" and such I thought "uh oh, here we go again". They contained a lot of blaming, belittling of Tek's experience level, a bit of internet psychoanalysis, and some unnecessary jabs like where are your parents? Even an ominous hint of a threat i.e. no freedom of speech in Mexico and defamation being "penal".
I thought the matter was closed and Mr Horn now indicates it is just beginning. Let it go, man.
I thought they had it worked out so why then come back and analyze the sequence of events and assign blame as if trying to score points and win (what's with all the strike ones), despite the disclaimer otherwise? When I saw all the paragraphs of "Tek did this" and "Tek said that" and such I thought "uh oh, here we go again". They contained a lot of blaming, belittling of Tek's experience level, a bit of internet psychoanalysis, and some unnecessary jabs like where are your parents? Even an ominous hint of a threat i.e. no freedom of speech in Mexico and defamation being "penal".
I thought the matter was closed and Mr Horn now indicates it is just beginning. Let it go, man.
Aqua Safari
Registered
- Messages
- 54
- Reaction score
- 25
I thought the matter was closed and Mr Horn now indicates it is just beginning. Let it go, man.[/QUOTE]
No, we can't let it go. What Jonathan wrote is exactly what my Captains need to hear.
We have amazing visibility in Cozumel. Are we getting overconfident?
We can't let it go until someone actually gets hurt or killed.
Not by one of my boats.
You are not going to get 300 feet for a divebuoy on Paradise in Cozumel.
A football field away? With this visibility it is a hard sell.
The alpha flag here in Cozumel according to the harbormaster means 50 meters.
We had to shove it down the park patrol boat's throat, because they were checking the boats with our divers in the water.
We've only just begun and this is productive.
I'll translate it, discuss it with my Captains, divemasters and instructors,
and I'll invite the harbormaster to breakfast with Jonathan, Morgan and friends,
my senior Captain, and a couple of other association dive operators.
Sinceramente,
Aqua safari
Bill Horn
No, we can't let it go. What Jonathan wrote is exactly what my Captains need to hear.
We have amazing visibility in Cozumel. Are we getting overconfident?
We can't let it go until someone actually gets hurt or killed.
Not by one of my boats.
You are not going to get 300 feet for a divebuoy on Paradise in Cozumel.
A football field away? With this visibility it is a hard sell.
The alpha flag here in Cozumel according to the harbormaster means 50 meters.
We had to shove it down the park patrol boat's throat, because they were checking the boats with our divers in the water.
We've only just begun and this is productive.
I'll translate it, discuss it with my Captains, divemasters and instructors,
and I'll invite the harbormaster to breakfast with Jonathan, Morgan and friends,
my senior Captain, and a couple of other association dive operators.
Sinceramente,
Aqua safari
Bill Horn
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