Aqualung and gray markets...FYI

[garyfotodiver]

I have had the same positive experience with Aeris (sister company to Oceanic). I purchased a Savant locally. It was greatly discounted because it was out of production.
It crapped out. Took it back too the shop from which I purchased it. They contacted the Aeris rep. There was not another Savant to be had, so they handed me an Atmos 2. (sons of bitches)

Don't you like the Atmos 2? I like mine.

 

[Coalcracker]

You could duplicate this post and Replace Aqua Lung with Scubapro.

Both say the same thing "officially". It seems that Leisure Pro has the latest models at the best prices time after time. Why is that?

 

[Splitlip]

Don't you like the Atmos 2? I like mine.

My tongue was planted firmly in my cheek when I added the parens.

The shop upgraded me. I think you knew that.:no

 

[rawls]

Not after your second and third posts made #41 look like so much backpedaling.

Ok...The day I posted this thread...once again...I was doing searches of dive gear...I don't recall all of the sites I visited but some I recall included Greenforce, OMS, Scubapro, DUI, Diverite and forgive me, but yes Aqualung. I own OMS, Scubapro, DUI Greenforce and, forgive me, but yes 3 Aqualung products. In doing this search when I came to the Aqualung site, I saw the statement by the company. Once again, I had read some recent posts about gray markets. I had not seen this statement and thought it interesting enough to post as a thread. It is as simple as that. As far as my personal opinions...I am supporter of the LDS and not of any particular product line or company. And again, I truly could care less about where people buy their products from. If you support online stores, ok. There are 2 LDS's where I live. I have gotten to know and develop a relationship and friendships with the people at both shops. I have purchased gear from both shops. One where I teach and the other where my tech instructor teaches, which is the competitor. And astonishing as it may sound, I have made purchases online before. But only if these 2 LDS's don't have the gear I am looking for. Both shops sell products, do tank fills and run charters, where, if you want to "follow the money", then follow it to the cost of diesel fuel these days. The gear both of these shops sell is not at the high volume you presume it is and is not as supplementing as you believe. Last year the charters lost their ass because of the increased fuel prices and bad weather. This season is going to be even worse if there are alot of bad weather days. But guess what, lose money or not, they will still run the charters for divers. So yes, I do very strongly support the LDS. In no way is it a specific product.
In owning all of 3 Aqualung products, why would I be so pro Aqualung. I purchase products based on my specific needs. It might very well be Aqualung, or it may be Scubapro, or Poseidon, OMS, Diverite, etc...If I purchase a wetsuit and I like the fit and feel of the Aqualung over a different suit, then I will buy the Aqualung. If another brand fits better, I will buy it. Last year I purchased a Uwatec Aladin Tec 2G computer....LP cost $450. I bought it from one of the LDS's...this is a 3rd LDS that is land locked that does not do charters, that I also do business with. I bought it from them for $500. Big mark up over LP. Bottom line is I support LDS's. And, once again, I purchase products that fit my needs regardless of the company.
And since it obviously wasn't clear enough to you the first time I wrote it...to answer your question as to what was my cut...There was no cut. You can call me all the names you want to, but you are 100% wrong in your accusation. Do you really think that Aqualung or any other company is going to pay me or give me a discount because I posted a thread. Come on.
As to my second and third posts...Is it not business? I think you used the term "capitalism" in another one of your terse and disrespectful replies. Am I wrong about the warranties. You will not get the Aqualung warranty if you buy their product from LeisurePro.
And I am sure it is hurting the LDS and the LDS is raising prices in order to make up for business lost to online stores. Online stores I agree are here to stay and no matter who one supports, in the end it is going to be the survival of the fittest. All in all, whichever way you look at it, and as nasty as things may or may not be, it is business, or again using your word, "capitalism." Do you think Aqualung or Scubapro, or whatever dive industry business is a heck of alot different than other non-dive industry business. Look at the oil industry. We are getting royally screwed by them, but as unfair as it is, that is still business too. So where do my comments about saying it is called business sound like I am backpedaling. Same thing with the warranties. Once again, what I wrote in my post was the truth. You can believe what you wish.
You have made several personal attacks in your replies using name calling and going as far as insinuating that I am lying about things I write. Well, you are wrong, even though I have a strong feeling you will never be open-minded or honorable enough to admit it.

 

[bfw]

blah, blah, blah.

Your classes are affordable, and hence marketable, because of the markup the LDS makes on equipment. That's a vested interest. Is it possible you posted without this vested interest being a motivator? Sure, I'll buy that.

You could have posted a link, but no, you quoted the entire AL missive, in essence making their words your words. Posting a link would have been informative; quoting the entire thing is endorsement. If Obama had actually quoted Jeremiah Wright in his speeches, instead of merely referencing it, he'd have been out of the race in a New York minute.

Now, it's certainly possible that you don't endorse their stance and their statement of it, but as I see it, accepting that would be MORE insulting to you. I credited you with a level of linguistic sophistication to realize the implications of quoting the entire statement. Calling you a schill isn't an insult; all salespeople are, to some extent, schills. I've schilled. There's no shame in it. I didn't point it out for judgmental purposes, but merely to give context to what you said. However, to say, hey, this guy just parroted something he saw online, with no judgment of his own playing a role, and with no understanding of how it would come across, which seems to conform to your current claim, in my view, would be to call you a fool.

The only other possibility is that your nothing but a troll trying to stir up controversy.
That's better than a fool, but I think not as good as being a schill, because a troll is malicious.

 

[bfw]

If you read my post completely, I said my daughter did not like the back plate and wing I set up for her.Or perhaps you did.

I did. Did not like is an emotional response. I can't begin to count the number of people I know who drive without wearing seatbelts because they "don't like them."

In my view, as a parent, your job is to provide what you OBJECTIVELY see as the optimal configuration, not cater to what she likes. My parents didn't ask if I liked vegetables, they just told me to eat them.

I'm not telling you what to do - I'll defend to the death your right to parent as you wish, whether I agree with it or not, but that doesn't mean you won't hear my opinion if I disagree.

Not every body uses a BPW.

Either everyone should, or they shouldn't. It's either optimal or it's not. Your statement implies it's merely a matter of personal preference, which is essentially decision by emotion.

Not every body will buy a BPW without having used one,

That's human folly at work. I'm not addressing what's typical, but rather, what's optimal. It took quite a while for me to see it as optimal, during which time, I "didn't like it," sort of like the way I choked down a ton of broccoli before I realized it's really pretty good.

You are correct, it is about function. The best way to determine function for the individual is to use the BCD.

No, it's not, at least the way you relate it. If you don't like it, especially at first, it may be that the problem is not the equipment, but the diver. Your approach, by rejecting it because it's "not liked" arbitrarily assumes the problem must be the equipment, in complete disregard for whether it's functionally optimal or not.

FTR, the first BPW I ever used was loaned to me by another LDS. (bastards)

And your point is? You seem to think I'd condemn them for that. Why? I simply rebutted the contention that handling the merchandise and other services of the LDS automatically trump internet price savings. I never said they had no value. In fact, I specifically said that if you need such services, or even prefer them, you should buy where you get them and be prepared to pay the piper.

 

[novicediver]

The whole thread is tiresome and pointless. Online shopping is here to stay, there will always be a need for the local dive shop in some capacity or another. All business' have to make a profit somehow even if it is a small one. The only question is how they decide to run the business. What if the gear was less expensive but the training was more expensive? I don't have the answer, but I do know the sky isn't falling and the world isn't coming to an end yet either.

 

[akscubaduck1]

As for Aqua Lung benefit of warranty via authorized dealers…I thought I’d throw this little tidbit out into the feeding frenzy. Personally, I’m feeling it is of questionable benefit.

My SeaQuest BC had some form of weakness in the corrugated inflator hose. At just under the warranty period, once inflated in the water, I guess with pressure, it became a 5cm split in the hose crevice.
So I got back out of the water took it home, rinsed and dried then 3 days later into the authorized dealer I purchased it from for warranty covered repair. Or so I blithely thought.

The shop seemed concerned about the repair cost to me. I said it’s under warranty. This required my proving it, ok I said. Why they couldn’t just look it up…whatever. In the meantime fix it so I can dive and I’ll bring in my receipt. Ok, they said, before we do the repair we’ll call you with an estimate. It’s under warranty I said (for the 4th time now.) There was some head shaking and; I don’t think so. Very weird I thought. (Ok you just think I’m wrong about when I boutht it.) Just get it fixed ASAP and I’ll bring in the receipt. The call before fix with estimate was again repeated.

Getting nowhere then, I went home and got my receipt, looked in the manual as well as online and as best as I could tell, yes, this was a warranty covered issue. Brought the stuff into the shop asking; was it fixed yet? No, we don’t do repairs without confirmation you will accept the cost. We didn’t know if you wanted it fixed. (Gee I left it here because….what?)
Some unhappy examination of my receipt. What’s the problem? Oh nothing; and returned to unhappy examination. Several more repetitions of the previous it’s under warranty discussion later, with still no reply for why on earth they think it’s not, I gave up. How much could replacing the hose cost? Just fix the damn thing and I’ll sort it out later. This is a good company, shouldn’t be much of a problem, right?
I wrote something about covered under warranty on the work order. More head shaking, a lot of very troubled looks amongst those discussing in low voices out of my hearing.

Finally I’m called; did I decide if I want them to fix it? (My brain screams; WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM!!!! Take a deep breath….)Yes please I answer. You know it is not covered under warranty and will cost…$? It is covered. No it’s not. Why not? I don’t know, I just don’t think so. Why? I just don’t think so. (This is just the weirdest damn thing is all I can think.) I managed to not yell; just fix it, and squeaked out please.

Rooted around a bit and found the nearest rep, explained the situation. Oh, he said, I don’t think that’s covered.
Why?
I don’t know, you’ll have to ask the company.
Hello? What on earth is being a rep mean to you?
This hasn’t come up before.
Then how come you think it’s not covered?
I’ve just heard about it.
Then it has come up.
Not for me.
Would you like to know more about the company you represent and find out?
That would be a good idea.
So you’re going to find out and call me back?
Oh. Well…....(long pause)
It seems quite reasonable to me. Can you please explain what I’m not getting about this?
I don’t know. You’ll have to contact the company.
How do I do that, who do I speak to?
I don’t know.
Any suggestions?
No.
I gave up.

My calling the company got just as no where. I spoke to a couple of people on the phone and got nearly identical answers – I think there was a prepared script for just this situation. The last person thought because I was not using the same brand inflator it voided the warranty for the BC, but they only heard that and didn’t know for sure. (I can show you the tag on it saying X$ without inflator. First I heard that when purchasing without that inflator I may be hosed when some other part fails…..)

So, the last word was I had to write for an answer. No one able to be connected to or reached by phone would be able to tell me if my repair was covered, and no one was willing to say more than they thought it was not, or anything about not buying their inflator.

I wrote by USPS Certified and got a received card back but no reply. Also e-mailed a detailed account from purchase, that did get a response. Basically saying; if you have questions regarding your product please provide a detailed explination of the problem or contact your local authorized dealer. The nearest is: who I bought it from or representative: the idiot who had no clue.

Now several weeks later, finally the BC seemed to have been repaired, but there was some problem with payment (I had not heard anything from the company yet.) The shop fellow left the BC in my hand next to an open garage size door and went to see if he could solve it. Such was my frustration by now, I seriously considered just walking out to my car parked next to the door, BC in hand. But, feeling sorry for the fellow (I’d not seen there before) and I was a loyal customer – nearly all my gear had been purchased there - I waited. Reassuring myself, somehow I had just fallen thru numerous cracks in the customer service plan and all would be resolved shortly. Finally he came back, had no answer for the paperwork problem, unable to reach anyone to ask, and was alone in the shop; what did I want to do?

I gave up, I wanted to dive, paid for the repair and figured the company was eventually going to set the situation straight. Ha! No, never heard a thing back again from them.

OMG!!!
I had the same problem with my Black Diamond.
My corrugated hose split, I talked to someone in the repair dept.
They said there was a recall on those hoses.
They were more then happy to send a few to the shop I work at.
( Air Source hoses were also affected )
I think your rep. needs to find another job.
Your LDS wouldn't honor the warranty! :11: They SUCK !
They could have gotten them for free!
If you had walked in to the shop I work in you would have gotten
a replacement installed within a few hours.
Think twice about that dive shop.
And by the way who cares where you buy your gear.
Be smart check out options, be informed.
Buy good gear, dive often.
Dive Safe, Dive Often, Dive Prince William Sound, AK.

 

[FiremanGreg]

Unfortunately, it's a bigger picture than all of this. It's a bigger picture than scuba gear, or LP and AL.

Grey market goods are not 'illegal', or counterfeit. They are simply goods sold in a market for which they were not originally distributed.

Black market goods, on the other hand, are illegal and/or counterfeit goods, not produced legally by the manufacturer with a contract to produce them. One example of black market goods might be a manufacturing plant continuing to produce a product after a company's contract with them to produce it expired, or after a company discontinued a product.

Grey markets exist in far more product lines than scuba gear, and are not necessarily even limited to manufactured goods.

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I believe that grey market goods exist primarily due to imbalances in global economies. I think the location of a company's manufacturing plant plays a big role, and items that have higher anticipated warranty costs play a big role.

Companies with global presence have to set different price points in different markets, and they have to manage different ongoing costs associated with all the goods sold (the cost of the product sold in a market takes into account the cost of service after the sale in that market). This is why you typically see warranty issues.

If a product is bought through one market at that market's price, the vendor has brought in enough money on the sale for the manufacturer to cover the ongoing costs in that market. If a product is bought through an outside market, then only enough money has been brought in to cover ongoing costs in that outside market, not in the purchaser's local market.

Manufacturers have to try to balance all of that along with customer expectations.

In our current example, LP is simply finding products in other markets to import to the US, after they have been sold by AL to distributors in those markets. The products themselves are not illegal products in any way, but they were sold to distributors in markets that have lower price points than the US. LP is able to find enough of them to bring in that they can still keep their cost below the price point of the same product sold to distributors in the US. That is the grey market.

As has been pointed out, some customers are not concerned about warranty issues. As has been pointed out, AL has still made their money on the sale of the product to the distributor.

When LP sells a product for less than the US market set price point, it's good for the consumer, but ultimately it takes a little out of AL's bottom line. That is why they put out statements about not being able to support that product. Again, we're usually talking about products where service during and after the sale play a role in the products life, for most consumers.

AL and other companies make statements about support and authorized channels both to educate consumers about their options, as well as to protect their bottom line as much as possible. You may or may not agree with it, but all companies have a goal of increasing their profits. They can't please everyone, but as long as the majority of consumers for their product continue to buy, supply and demand stays intact.

LP has it's own business and finances to manage. If they can do enough volume across all their sales to keep the bottom line intact, then they can afford to match AL's warranty out of their own pocket. Their success in that effort comes from the variety of brands they sell, and that they don't have run a small business. The smaller shops still have to sell personal service, because they can't do the volume yet.

There's nothing illegal or inappropriate about it at all. Make your choice and go with it. The service role will continue to complicate things for a while. Different consumers have different levels of expectations of service, and that leaves room for local authorized distributors to customize service, and have valid reasons for carrying a higher price. For those that place less of a value on 'walk in' service, LP and others will be there to capture that business.

Companies like AL will continue to evaluate market price points, attempting to balance consumer purchasing habits and expectations. Consumer habits and expectations of service also change as their level of experience changes. Usually the more experience you gain with something, the less service you require, and the less value you see in the service an authorized dealer provides. Smaller authorized dealers will also learn how to expand their reach through the internet to increase volume.

We're all still learning how to live in a global economy that technology has made possible over the last 10-20 years. We get passionate about how we spend our hard earned dollars, but we shouldn't criticize each other for our individual choices on the value of service and support.

It's global economics, and it's larger than just us fishes...

 

[jaycanwk]

Authorities raid flea markets for knock off movies, purses, jeans, and shoes all the time. Why would they care less about BC's than they do about jeans? You don't hear about counterfeit dive gear because there just isn't very much of it out there.

As a customer, I think manufacturers and local shops would do more for themselves if they were upfront about the situation and explained that you can buy a product from us for $X with warranty and support, or you can buy it from them for $Y without. Then, go on to explain why you think warranty and support are worth the extra money.

When retailers and manufactures use lies, innuendo, and half-truths to handle the situation, they loose credibility on a whole host of other issues too. Once divers learn that there are thousands of other divers using gear from gray market sources without major problems, the reputation of local shops and manufacturers takes a big hit. Without a reputation for honest advice and solid recommendations, what advantage does a local shop have?

And what is the actual "value" of the warranty anyway? Most warranties for reatil goods are anywhere from 30 days to 2 years. Most goods that are of any quality usually outlast thier warrany. I've baught everything from tv's, computers, cameras, etc., etc., etc.... and when they finally, if ever do break, the warranty has long expired. So I think the odds are in my favor when I buy something without a warranty.