Question Apollo AV-1 DSV as a learning scooter?

[tmassey]

tl;dr: Is the Apollo AV-1 DSV a good intro 'learning' scooter for someone with almost no DPV experience? Will the skills gained -- not the scooter itself -- eventually translate toward technical/cave DPV usage? And what is a good price for one?


I have the opportunity to buy an Apollo AV-1 for $400. It has a newish battery and the seller had used it that morning. This was a random unsolicited offer, and I'm not at all familiar with this machine. After some research, I can't really tell if this will be useful to me, so I'm hoping you might be able to help me.

I'm a technical diver who enjoys shipwrecks and caves. I am DPV certified (SDI Rec and TDI Tech), though I have only used a single DPV (a Piranha P2) and only during my class weekend. My long-term goal is to be able to drive a scooter in caves.

Right now, I actually am interested in buying a low-cost scooter purely as a learning tool. A scooter that will never see an overhead, but that will allow me to work on the basics of DPV and to grow my skills. My target use would be local lakes or quarries in completely non-overhead environments, focusing on gaining basic competency. But I want the skills I learn on the beginner scooter to at least mostly translate to larger and more capable scooters.

My only real requirement is that such a scooter be able to teach me skills that will translate into the future. The question is, will the Apollo AV-1 do this?

I'm most worried about the obvious difference: The AV-1 is two-handed, with no tow strap. A technical DPV is single-handed with a tow strap. Without any experience, that seems to be a pretty significant difference. Does that prevent the Apollo from being a productive learning tool? I definitely don't want to buy something that doesn't actually contribute to moving in the direction of a technical scooter.

Finally, one other thing: what is a good price for an AV-1? And are there any specific things to examine before buying one?


To address a couple of other possibilities which I'm sure will come up: yes, I do know about the BlackTip. But with recent price increases, you're looking at $2500 for even a BlackTip Travel with batteries/charger. There's no question about its capabilities as a learning tool, but it's way too much for me to spend at a time when I'm years away from actually needing an overhead-capable DPV, and by the time I do get there I may actually want something beyond the BlackTip -- or newer models may have better capabilities. It's amazing how much DPV's have grown in the last 5 or so years, and batteries keep getting better.

Another alternative would be to find a used tech-style DPV. The problem there is that you rarely see one of those for under $1000, and when you do they almost always have difficulties of their own, such as dead batteries. By the time you get them back in shape, you're easily more than halfway to the price of a brand new BlackTip yet still with older motors, controllers, etc. That doesn't seem to make these a great value.

There's no question the appeal of the AV-1 is that it's $400 and it's ready to run, such as it is. But if it won't help me learn the skills I will need in the future, it's a waste of money at nearly any price. So will this help me learn the skills I need?

And I guess one more thought: is there a practical way to convert it to single-hand use? I was inspired by stumbling across a single-grip conversion kit for a different scooter (Single Grip Rail Kit). Turns out there might be a way with the AV-1: https://www.apollomilitary.com/products/av-2-tech-arm Does anyone have any experience with such an idea?


Thank you all very much for your time! I appreciate your help.

 

[grantctobin]

I’d wait and look for a UV18 or UV26 which frequently pop up in the sub grand range. A pair of lead acid batteries are quite cheap and if you find yourself running out of them, you could then purchase off the shelf lithium batteries. I would guess the only thing that translates well from the Apollo is the “feeling” that your buoyancy has shifted and you’re either slightly positive or negative. Resale value is poor on them as well and the lack of torque will not make you happy.

 

[scubadada]

Hi @tmassey

I learned to use a DPV on an AV-1 in Grand Cayman in 2004. I have used or rented DPVs several times since , but have never purchased one for myself. In addition to Apollo/Tusa, I have also used Piranha and BlackTip. I always used the Apollo two-handed or, mostly, rode it with the saddle. Newer Apollo/Tusa DPVs are still the most commonly seen scooter in Boynton Beach/Palm Beach/Jupiter for hunting, but BlackTips seem to be more and more common. I have never seen an Apollo/Tusa with the one-handed option, the hunters ride them.

The price of the AV-1 seems pretty good but I would be concerned about a few things. Apollo discontinued service quite a while ago and I would also be concerned about parts. Should you need service, not sure what your options would be. I would make sure the one-handed conversion fits and works with the AV-1, not just the AV-2. As stated, Apollo/Tusa are a different design than tech scooters.

 

[Johnoly]

Hi @tmassey
Apollo discontinued service quite a while ago and I would also be concerned about parts.

@scubadada zero'd in on the AV-1 main issue. Some Parts are very scarce. An example are the motor brushes which wear out from the known overheating motor problem. Some diver's have spent hundreds of dollars getting custom brushes made. The case Oring constantly gets nicked and damage-Cost =$40/oring. The channel that the oring sits in easily cracks & leaks. I don't think I've seen an AV-1 yet that doesn't have a crack which leads to a battery flood & sometimes a motor flood underneath depending on depth. Also you are talking about a 30 year old motor design that by today's standards is really inefficient. Even with 'on & off' the trigger, you'll get 30minutes of actual run time on those lead acid batteries so bring 2-3 on your boat. Where today's lithiums (which AV-1 can't take) will get 3 hours on the trigger.

The biggest advantage of the AV-1 (& AV-2) is that it is 'hands free' because it has a saddle that goes between your legs. For a spearfisherman holding a gun/looper you can easily chase down a cobe or grouper going into the current. Using a saddle is just a matter of turning your hips. But this is nothing like a tow strap connected to a crotch strap d-ring for learning purposes.

$400 is a good price-almost too good. It would take a knowledgable person to look at the motor, heat sensor (if over ridden), the on-off switch (which can fail in the on position-bye bye scooter). It's kinda like buying a $500 car that runs for 2 months and then you junk it on the side of the road. You understand that will happen before the purchase payment.

 

[tmassey]

Thank you all for the replies. I think it’s clear that the Apollo is not a step in the right direction. Inspired by @grantctobin I went out looking for for a more tech-oriented DPV and came across a diveable Gavin for a similar price. I’ve asked some questions directly of a couple of people about it and the early replies seem to indicate that while it’s *heavy* (forget using it on a boat) and uses obsolete technology that probably isn’t much more efficient than the Apollo, parts are obtainable and it will at least allow me to develop skills that will be applicable to future scooters. It even seems that there are upgrades available such as motor controllers, LiFePo4 batteries and T handles. But if I do go in the Gavin direction I’ve already decided: I’m putting no money into it. The only upgrade I will make to it is a BlackTip!

 

[happy-diver]

Brilliant scooter the AV-1 get yourself a saddle and squeeze it between your legs

Barracuda DPV – Made for DPV

www.barracudadpv.com

 

[kissonerga.ccr]

Thank you all for the replies. I think it’s clear that the Apollo is not a step in the right direction. Inspired by @grantctobin I went out looking for for a more tech-oriented DPV and came across a diveable Gavin for a similar price. I’ve asked some questions directly of a couple of people about it and the early replies seem to indicate that while it’s *heavy* (forget using it on a boat) and uses obsolete technology that probably isn’t much more efficient than the Apollo, parts are obtainable and it will at least allow me to develop skills that will be applicable to future scooters. It even seems that there are upgrades available such as motor controllers, LiFePo4 batteries and T handles. But if I do go in the Gavin direction I’ve already decided: I’m putting no money into it. The only upgrade I will make to it is a BlackTip!

I put in almost 100 hrs on a Tusa with saddle, and loved it – the closest to body flying one can experience in the water, imho (or, riding a broom, Harry Potter style). Having free hands also helped, what with the rebreather mavs, dry suit / wing inflation, equalization, etc. Mine was a newer model with lithium battery though, ran it for about three hours in the medium range, no issues

Then upgraded to a Seacraft product – calls for a different skill set, indeed. In some sense, more like stick flying a small airplane, in terms of muscle inputs / coordination / task loading. The Tusa experience was still relevant, but only in a general sense. For precision control, as in cave dpv-ing, not really applicable

I think you made the right choice with the Gavin there

 

[coleman.jamie]

That diver is going to be so sad he didn’t hook you with his sales pitch He was pretty gung ho on selling it.

 

[tmassey]

That diver is going to be so sad he didn’t hook you with his sales pitch He was pretty gung ho on selling it.

Well, I’m sure it’s still for sale. I have his number. Just because an Apollo isn’t the right scooter for me doesn’t mean it isn’t the right scooter for somebody else. If somebody else is interested, get in touch with me and I’ll put you in touch with him.

 

[Johnoly]

.... it isn’t the right scooter for somebody else....

So true.
And due to the scarcity/rarity of AV-1 parts and the condition of the said scooter......The sum of the parts could be worth more than the whole scooter.