AOW & Nitrox course - What to expect?

[Disco King]

So for the PPB, I'd have my students frog kick as part of traveling over a sensitive bottom (silty), and they had to do so smoothly, and everyone has needed practice sessions before moving onto the next one, navigation. I felt quite strongly that in order for a student to be task loaded with navigation, they had to be able to fin smoothly and have good buoyancy and trim, otherwise students have a tendency to rise as they go fin. For the night, students had a lot of difficulty with navigating a triangle, as they needed to keep their depth constant, as if they followed the bottom, they'd wind up nowhere near the starting point. Deep has weak requirement, so I didn't do anything special there. DSMB, they had to deploy from midwater without much change in depth, and when ascending, they had to stop, and keep the line tight when working through the performance requirements. All that, for a relatively new diver, that's just not happening in 5 dives.

I'd have a good conversation with the dive op you choose about your expectations and their standards for training. I guess you want to be challenged and work hard for improving your diving skills. Sounds like to me that GUE fundies/UTD essentials/ISE basics are better options, but logistics may prevent that.

Looked into GUE. Logistic and dedication required is a little challenge. I have been talking with a shop in Cabo San Lucas. The shop proposed AOW+PPB course. I have three days there (before my liveaboard starts) so I am thinking to do either not to make it too hectic. Options I am considering is:
1. Try AOW on this trip and see how things go. Then pursue needed education e.g., PPB specialty course later time. Have you seen students who's buoyancy improved fast. I am asking because mine was good until I switched from 3mm to 5mm. So I am hoping it will recover soon?
2. Do PPB and just focus on it.
In your opinion which would be better option?

 

[JackD342]

Still don’t know whose AOW this is. PADI or another 5 dive version?
You probably really need the deep dive included in AOW for the live aboard. You can include dive 1 of PPB in the 5 AOW dives, and finish dive 2 another time if you choose to.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Looked into GUE. Logistic and dedication required is a little challenge. I have been talking with a shop in Cabo San Lucas. The shop proposed AOW+PPB course. I have three days there (before my liveaboard starts) so I am thinking to do either not to make it too hectic. Options I am considering is:
1. Try AOW on this trip and see how things go. Then pursue needed education e.g., PPB specialty course later time. Have you seen students who's buoyancy improved fast. I am asking because mine was good until I switched from 3mm to 5mm. So I am hoping it will recover soon?
2. Do PPB and just focus on it.
In your opinion which would be better option?

Here's the thing, and many will object to my opinion, but to me, what PPB covers, should have been covered in open water. You should have the fundamentals of weighting down and have the understanding of how to address changes in configuration. Your OW instructor should be able to guide you even remotely.

Let me describe my process for when I taught for a shop and had students in a wetsuit. In their first pool session, I would figure out how much weight they need to sink during the float test. Then I would take the wetsuit that they'd use in the ocean, put it in this mesh bag, and then add weights to a weight bag attached to the mesh bag until it was basically neutral. I took the cylinders they would use in the ocean, drain it to 500 psi, attach it to a BCD and regulator assembly, chuck it over the side of my row boat and use a luggage scale to see how negative it was. Now the wet suit measurement was the least accurate, as the buoyancy by itself isn't going to be the same as when someone wears it due to stretching. But I at least got in the ballpark, and then at the end of a dive when it was at 500 psi, we'd do a weight check at 15 feet with an empty BCD to see if they could hold a safety stop breathing normally. This worked pretty darn well.

Of course, I'd focus on weight placement in order to get them comfortably trim in the water.

Now I didn't answer your question, but I still hope you found something here useful.

With regards to the two options, there is a third if you are open to it. Instead of a PPB course, why not take a workshop from an instructor, preferably one who teaches tech, to teach you the skills that you want? I'd recommend this if you are more interested in the skills than the c-card.

I'm not a fan of AOW (adventure diver by some agencies) as I don't believe students learn much. You can get PADI AOW by taking navigation and two other specialties (I'd recommend skills based) and then you are an adventure diver. Once you are an adventure diver, then you can take deep. One more specialty, and you qualify for AOW. I think this is a more meaningful route. Just find instructors who are passionate about those specialties. There's enough vagueness in many courses to allow instructors to make them more challenging (and beneficial). Find those instructors. If you don't have James Lapenta's books (he wrote one on AOW), I highly recommend both. They will help you interview instructors. It is money well spent.

I hope this doesn't frustrate you as I'm going beyond what you are asking for, but rather gives you something to think about on how to best proceed towards your goals and the time/financial requirements to get there.

 

[Disco King]

Here's the thing, and many will object to my opinion, but to me, what PPB covers, should have been covered in open water. You should have the fundamentals of weighting down and have the understanding of how to address changes in configuration. Your OW instructor should be able to guide you even remotely.

Let me describe my process for when I taught for a shop and had students in a wetsuit. In their first pool session, I would figure out how much weight they need to sink during the float test. Then I would take the wetsuit that they'd use in the ocean, put it in this mesh bag, and then add weights to a weight bag attached to the mesh bag until it was basically neutral. I took the cylinders they would use in the ocean, drain it to 500 psi, attach it to a BCD and regulator assembly, chuck it over the side of my row boat and use a luggage scale to see how negative it was. Now the wet suit measurement was the least accurate, as the buoyancy by itself isn't going to be the same as when someone wears it due to stretching. But I at least got in the ballpark, and then at the end of a dive when it was at 500 psi, we'd do a weight check at 15 feet with an empty BCD to see if they could hold a safety stop breathing normally. This worked pretty darn well.

Of course, I'd focus on weight placement in order to get them comfortably trim in the water.

Now I didn't answer your question, but I still hope you found something here useful.

With regards to the two options, there is a third if you are open to it. Instead of a PPB course, why not take a workshop from an instructor, preferably one who teaches tech, to teach you the skills that you want? I'd recommend this if you are more interested in the skills than the c-card.

I'm not a fan of AOW (adventure diver by some agencies) as I don't believe students learn much. You can get PADI AOW by taking navigation and two other specialties (I'd recommend skills based) and then you are an adventure diver. Once you are an adventure diver, then you can take deep. One more specialty, and you qualify for AOW. I think this is a more meaningful route. Just find instructors who are passionate about those specialties. There's enough vagueness in many courses to allow instructors to make them more challenging (and beneficial). Find those instructors. If you don't have James Lapenta's books (he wrote one on AOW), I highly recommend both. They will help you interview instructors. It is money well spent.

I hope this doesn't frustrate you as I'm going beyond what you are asking for, but rather gives you something to think about on how to best proceed towards your goals and the time/financial requirements to get there.

I will look into the book and the alternative option. Very insightful. I really really appreciate you advice!

 

[JackD342]

Please, please, please check with the boat, and see if not having AOW will affect your dive options on board. Sooner or later you will need to get that, I think sooner is better.

 

[Disco King]

Please, please, please check with the boat, and see if not having AOW will affect your dive options on board. Sooner or later you will need to get that, I think sooner is better.

Thank you for the note. I already talked with the operator. AOW is not required.

 

[jonhall]

1. Try AOW on this trip and see how things go. Then pursue needed education e.g., PPB specialty course later time. Have you seen students who's buoyancy improved fast. I am asking because mine was good until I switched from 3mm to 5mm. So I am hoping it will recover soon?

I'm not a fan of AOW (adventure diver by some agencies) as I don't believe students learn much.

Have to agree that students don't learn much, but given that AOW is meant to help build confidence (in 5 different specialty dives?!?!) and give a diver the chance to try out different specialties, I guess one shouldn't expect too much. BUT in regards to PPB I will say that simply by reading the section in the manual on PPB (the basic weight guidelines) when I took the AOW course, it helped me to be more prepared when I put on a 7 mm suit. I would have probably underweighted myself as I did a few years earlier by guessing the weight I needed when I first dove in a 7 mm. Getting the weighting right for the gear you're using goes a long way in having good buoyancy.

I'm sharing my experience on the PPB dive that my buddy and I did at the same time and hope yours is run a little better than ours. We went down in a group of 8 divers of various abilities with just 1 instructor, but we were the only 2 who were trying to pass the skills. The instructor gave the dive briefing and explained the 2 skills we would be doing and that when we were doing them, everyone else would stay, as best as they could, around the bottom watching us. The first skill was to hover about 3 ft. above the bottom for a minute. My buddy was first and struggled to stay at the level. The instructor worked with him for several minutes while everyone else just watched (I would have been a little ticked.) I, on the other hand, practiced during that time so when my time came I was easily able to use my breathing to do what I had to do. The second skill was knocking an object, that was placed on the bottom, over with our noses. Nothing was taught beforehand. It was simply go down and try until you did it.

The deep dive was with a group of people and 1 instructor while the remaining 3 dives, we had our own instructor for the 2 of us although there were other groups of divers on the boat with their own guides.

Like others, I would still suggest taking AOW for the certification that you may need when diving elsewhere, including on a liveaboard. You can always work on your buoyancy on other dives. I used 28 lbs in a 5 mm in Cabo one day and the next day used 22 lbs which was plenty. Since you only have 3 days in CSL, be sure that the dive op will have an instructor available for the dives your doing (sounds like you're on top of it) and will be able to sign off on everything. They will able to give you a temporary c-card.

 

[MichaelMc]

I think you will want AOW for the boat. If your basic skill were very bad, AOW with Nitrox would let you use the 'Nitrox' dive to progressively work on more of the PPB skills. Thus getting more in your pre-trip window: AOW deep checkoff, and more extensive PPB catchup. All dependent on them actually teaching, not just checking off you trying the skills.

Also the best place to practice and learn buoyancy is in a pool. You do not need open water. You will learn the most there, get a local instructor to run a few tutoring session with you in a pool.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Have to agree that students don't learn much, but given that AOW is meant to help build confidence (in 5 different specialty dives?!?!) and give a diver the chance to try out different specialties, I guess one shouldn't expect too much.

I think you will want AOW for the boat. If your basic skill were very bad, AOW with Nitrox would let you use the 'Nitrox' dive to progressively work on more of the PPB skills. Thus getting more in your pre-trip window: AOW deep checkoff, and more extensive PPB catchup. All dependent on them actually teaching, not just checking off you trying the skills.

Also the best place to practice and learn buoyancy is in a pool. You do not need open water. You will learn the most there, get a local instructor to run a few tutoring session with you in a pool.

Sorry guys, but your posts cause so many emotions in me, mostly frustration. Since we are talking about the PADI system, PADI defines master of skills as being performed fluidly, comfortably, and repeatedly. In both confined and open water, students are to be able to hover fluidly, comfortably, and repeatedly. If they cannot, they are not to proceed to the skills in the next dive until they are able to do so.

Why is this not the case?

There is absolutely no reason why a competent diver cannot be created out of PADI's open water. It has been about 7 years before the article on moving to neutral buoyancy was published, written by PADI instructors, some of whom are regulars on ScubaBoard.

Now in open water, hovering, with no specific time frame is required. This is in dive 3:
7. Become neutrally buoyant and hover by inflating the BCD orally.

If you are note able to hover comfortably, fluidly, and repeatedly, you should not have been certified as you did not meet the performance requirements. You are not able to continue to the skills in dive #4 until you meet all the performance requirements in dive #3

In the PPB adventure dive / dive 1 of the specialty, there are these requirements:
6. Hover for 60 seconds without rising or sinking more than 1 metre/3 feet by making minor depth adjustments
using breath control only (open-circuit scuba), or using very minor hand/fin sculling only (rebreathers).
7. Throughout the dive, control buoyancy and swim relaxed and neutrally buoyant in a horizontal position
without touching the bottom or breaking the surface, making frequent and small adjustments to buoyancy as needed.

If you had PPB as one of your adventure dives, if you cannot perform both the items above comfortably and fluidly, you have not completed this adventure dive. PADI only specifies the minimum of dives. If it takes you 1 or 2 or 10 dives to meet the performance requirements, then that's what it takes.

And AOW is supposed to give students new skills and experience. It isn't just about "building confidence." If it is, then I need to shred every PADI card I have all the way up to IDC Staff

It frustrates me that divers being shortchanged is the norm and accepted by so many. I get it that some people really don't care about their skills. That's probably the largest percentage of people who have gone diving at least once after their open water course. They just want to follow the guide and look at pretty fish. And some folks just want to collect cards and brag about it, don't care whether they have mastered skills (or are not aware that they are supposed to). Whoever hears them will likely never see them in the water.

But that's no excuse to shortchange them. AND violate standards by certifying people who don't meet performance requirements. I'm not picking on PADI here, as this happens with any agency without objective performance standards. Not all the time, there are conscientious and professional instructors across all agencies. But sometimes.....

Rant over. Again, @jonhall and @MichaelMc, This rant wasn't directed at you, but just the situation.

 

[dbulmer]

That's a red flag of a joke of a dive op. There are no underwater skills associated with nitrox. If we were having this conversation over the phone or over a beer, I'd be using much more colorful language.

Just an aside,

Last year on one particular dive in the Red Sea, there were 5 divers.
1 guide (instructor)
1 buddy pair (2 instructors)
1 buddy pair (1 Dm and 1 Rescue diver (me)

Dive plan on the boat was to max depth of 30m - all of us on 32 EAN.

We hit 30m at the bottom of the reef - I stayed at 30m (actually 29.9 as I have dive insurance to 30m) - the others went to 37m for 5 mins. The DM woke up and joined me at 30m, waving at the others who stayed another 3 mins or so.

I asked them what they saw - blank stares all round - they did not tell me or wanted to tell me.

Adherence to training and dive planning underwater is a diving fundamental irrespective of who you are.
I'm not arguing that there should be a mandatory dive for nitrox or that Nitrox should be a mandatory option in AOW but using Nitrox can have consequences on a dive and I'm just giving a loose example of how some divers can get complacent.

BTW this is not a criticism of you just in case it reads like that. Your comment that there are no underwater skills triggered my response.