AOW for Experienced Divers: An Open Letter to PADI

[packrat12]

The bigger issue I have is that they have reduced the training requirements for OW to a paltry 3 day 4 dive course. This course is not producing proficient divers but rather it is producing students for AOW. Good diving is a skill based on knowledge and experience. A 3 day/4 dive course is not going to provide much of either. In the 80's, we spent 6 weeks or so, 2 days or more a week training. There was a lot of 'instructor' time involved. This gave a lot more time to fit the training to each student and also time to learn proficiency with skills like buoyancy control and emergency procedures. The courses now must forgo the skills and teach the bare minimum to survive. Unfortunately, the training agencies seem to have setup a pipeline that goes OW -> AOW -> Specialties -> skilled diver. This is a money making churn for students and not necessarily in the best interest of the diving community. The idea that a training only AOW student is more proficient then an OW diver with experience is a joke. The information studied in AOW is basic at best and would be better served in the OW training environment. Then a real AOW course could provide for more in-depth training and a true knowledge and skill transfer to the student. There is a need for ongoing training, the current student churning formula with the training agencies is not it.

 

[AfterDark]

That's sort of the point. A c-card is the carrot (or the stick) used by the certification agencies to get divers to take classes. The classes require training materials, which generates revenue for the agencies and business for the instructors.

They have no financial incentive to offer a shortcut.

Your only real options are to find different dive shops/dive ops or suck it up and take the classes and get the card.

flots.

PS. I rotate though maybe 40 OW class sessions/year with various other shop staff, and quite often learn something new, and that's just OW class. Don't think you know everything. A few classes wouldn't kill you and you'll probably learn something useful.

Really? $300.00 doesn't fill my oil tank halfway. Maybe no big deal to you, but I'd like to have the $300. I wasted on AOW back.

 

[packrat12]

AfterDark,

Don't get me started on Nitrox

What is Nitrox but just Air. If our atmosphere contained 32% O2, we would call it ... Air. It is a minor leap to understand charts for Air and also the additional charts for EAN. They are the same basic principle with the same skill set. I would easily accept that EAN and AOW should automatically be combined and that is a part of the AOW training in addition to more in-depth training. Not the 'adventure dives' that are currently done.

 

[AfterDark]

Again, I understand your feeling, but the proper instructor could have advanced your skills. It is not AOW´s fault, but the instructor´s, inmho. Find good instructors, take private classes, and then receive the type of two way interaction that would make ANY class, worth it.

Only in a private setting. The other 5 people in my class had just finished OW, it was all new to them. The OP wasn't looking to advance his skills he was looking for the only proof of his skills that some ops will accept a c-card. I was looking for the same thing and got it but had to not only pay but show up for the classes and try to stay awake and look interested. I mean it because I work 3rd shift and would go to class very sleepy.

---------- Post added May 29th, 2013 at 02:15 PM ----------

You folks do realize that PADI has absolutely no control over whether or not a dive operator requires AOW for a dive? You do realize that the only benefit PADI gets from a student taking an AOW course is the cost of the academic materials and the certification card--the rest of the money goes to the shop and instructor providing the instruction?

I wonder what you would have thought if the OP had written the following instead:

Dear Harvard University:

Over the past decades, I have read a lot of books and had a lot of experiences that provided me with much more information than a typical college degree. I find, though, that I am unable to get the kind of job for which I am qualified because for some reason businesses are requiring a college diploma. I also find that it matters what college provides the diploma, and Harvard seems to do well in that category. I therefore suggest that Harvard have a program that provides a Harvard degree to anyone who can provide a list of books read that are equivalent to a college degree and who can pass a single check out test covering key concepts in those books. I believe that should cost $100.

PS: I notice that a lot of your recent graduates really, really suck compared to me. You should do something about that.​

You are correct but they'll be among the sharks going after the OP that accepted a log book if something happens. Pulling their rating and such or threating it.

 

[boulderjohn]

You are correct but they'll be among the sharks going after the OP that accepted a log book if something happens. Pulling their rating and such or threating it.

Under what circumstances?

PADI teaches instructors who certify students according to their standards. It has absolutely nothing to do with the policies and procedures of a dive organization. It has no policy saying that any diver anywhere must have an AOW, log book, or anything like that. In fact, in the last Undersea Journal, a short article made that clear. It said that there is a legal definition of the word agency, and they made it clear in that article, as they do in regular communications with PADI-affiliated shops, that they are NOT an agency under that definition, and they do not set those policies.

If they did direct OPs on those policies, then they themselves could be liable for the misdeeds of the OP, and they want it to be clear that they are not in that legal relationship.

 

[Sam Miller III]

LA County Moss Back certification

A little history....LA Co UW Instructors program was established in 1954 as a regional program. It was, is and will always be, basic, advanced or Instructor it is the most prestigious demanding civilian diving program in the world. One problem facing dive shops and divers in the SoCal area was what to do with the numerous divers who had began SCUBA diving in that 1948 - 1954 era prior to formalized training, including your truly. ( I became a LA Co UW instructor.)

Others who did not want to become instructors were facing increased difficulty with a small but vocal percentage of dive shops. Once again, like the OP's shops demanded commitment to a diving course which required an out lay of money and time.

The answer was the "Moss Back Certification" which was developed by LA Co UIA as a means of certifying the older divers in SoCal who began prior to dive training and certification.

FYI- A mossback is some one who has been around so long that they have moss growing n their backs ie an old timer...Generally associated with fish in California.

The Moss Back Certification was not an easy to obtain. Four hours of intensive written test to assess the diving knowledge of the candidate. The event broke for lunch while the LA Co Instructors graded the papers. After lunch they were interviewed. If they had passed the written they were invited to remain for the water portion, If they had failed their weakness was reviewed and they were advised to enroll in a diving course.

The water portion consisted of reviewing their diving equipment prior to entering the water . In the water they began with a swim with out aids, swimming with aids (FMS) underwater swim, recovery of an object, D&R and what ever else the evaluators deemed necessary to assure they were competent safe divers. IF they passed they were issued an LA Co Moss Back Certification Card. There are still a few Moss backs in SoCal but they are rapidly dwindling in numbers.

Tommy Thompson and I conducted the last Moss back certification for LA Co. About a dozen signed up, Only 3 or 4 satisfactory completed the written portion and were invited to the water portion - Only one passed.

This was the final Mossback certification offered by LA Co UIA. As I recall this was in the early 1970s.
Perhaps PADI can once again copy LA Co and offer a Moss Back type certification for people like the OP.

SDM
LA Co UW Instructor #11
NAUI #27
PADI #241
etc to the rest of the Instructor's Alphabet

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

That is exactly what I am discussing.

The responses have been interesting, to say the least. I did not start out to (and don't believe I did) "trash" PADI or its programs. I only offered an observation of where their training just does not fit the bill for many divers. I want more training, I will get more training, I just wanted to be able to spend my hard-earned $$$ there and not on a review that was fine but wholly unnecessary for me.

I never suggested foregoing AOW, or just getting it with logs (the fear of "forged logs"--are you kidding me?). I suggested exactly what sam miller describes, a morning of knowledge review, and an afternoon dive to demonstrate skills. On a shallow dive 30' or less, there is plenty of time to hover (PP Bouyancy), to run a few squares with the compass (Nav), and to deploy a SMB (for drift). These are the only "skills" that are actually learned in the course. For deep, you learn about color loss, and maybe slower reaction time, but no actual diving skills such as gas management, deco planning, pony bottle, or any other similar skills that are actually used for deep diving. Here, yes, your log books would provide the evidence of deep experience. That is, after all, the only thing you get from the single deep dive that AOW requires. Again, a lower-priced "moss back" type course is the ticket.

I know PADI needs to make money. I have no problem with that. However, they also offer a service and the purpose of my letter was to suggest a way they could improve that service for many divers.

As for some of the other comments ("Write that same letter to Harvard . . . ") well, the mind just reels.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
I know PADI needs to make money. I have no problem with that. However, they also offer a service and the purpose of my letter was to suggest a way they could improve that service for many divers.
. . .

There. You stated the conundrum. If PADI were to offer a mossback course at a price significantly lower than the regular AOW course, it would cut into potential revenue to them and their affiliated dive ops from offering the regular AOW course. It's like giving money away. Why would they do that?

 

[flots am]

Really? $300.00 doesn't fill my oil tank halfway. Maybe no big deal to you, but I'd like to have the $300. I wasted on AOW back.

You can keep the $300 and dive places/shops/operators that don't require an AOW card, or blow the money, get the card and dive with those that do require it.

It's just reality.

You could also buy a card printer and make your own AOW card. although the printer is a few hundred $, so it probably won't be cost effective.

flots.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Or find an independent instructor that will listen to your knowledge and experience, evaluate your skills, then tailor an AOW class to you that will be worth something. And not put you in a group with a bunch of newbies that in all seriousness should not be out of the pool from their OW class. My advanced level classes have a base structure. But if you think you're good at say Nav forget the square and triangle. I'll give you a six leg course and require you to use compass, natural, and a line and reel. Deep? How about carry a stage, run a line at 100 ft, then an air share from 100 to the stages we dropped, deploy them, and finish as a multilevel with a total run time of around 50 minutes? No drop, see the colors go away, open a lock or write your name backwards and surface with a 20 minute dive. You just need to find an instructor with imagination and that does the dives outside of classes. SEI does have equivalency certs but they are mostly for military and those who had an old YMCA card and want to change it.