AOW Disappointment

[Walter]

I too believe this discussion should be moved to the I to I forum ...

Absolutely not. This is not the type of discussion that would be beneficial in the I to I forum. The only place for these discussions is where potential consumers can see them. They only value they have is in consumer awareness.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Absolutely not. This is not the type of discussion that would be beneficial in the I to I forum. The only place for these discussions is where potential consumers can see them. They only value they have is in consumer awareness.

OK ... I'll bite ... how will this discussion help a new diver make better decisions about their AOW training?

To my concern, I've seen some real top-shelf AOW programs being offered by PADI instructors. During my "internship" I worked with one who provided several of the ideas I incorporated into my own (NAUI) AOW class ... and I'm still working hard to become half the instructor he is.

I think the standards angle has been hashed pretty well. If the conversation is to have some benefit to the new diver, perhaps it's time to move on to address the question ... "what should you be looking for in an AOW class?"

I believe the answer to that question transcends agency issues ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Walter]

I prefer that approach, Bob. I'll see what I can come up with over the next few days.

 

[Otter]

Absolutely not. This is not the type of discussion that would be beneficial in the I to I forum. The only place for these discussions is where potential consumers can see them. They only value they have is in consumer awareness.

I guess thats all how you define 'value'....

One can view RSTC minimum requirements as either (1) an opportunity to make improvements, or (2) deficiencies that should be pointed out to the world to see.....in either words constructive or destructive. How we choose to view it largely how we are wired -- Freud might say it was set by age 5 so I don't expect anyone to change.

I am going to start a thread in the I to I forum with suggestions on modifications to the minimum requirements for Open Water certification and hope all of the instructors on here help contribute to it.

We can beat a dead horse or try to build a train (Iron Horse if you missed my feeble metaphor). Are we going to be successful, I dunno for sure, but our chances are better than doing nothing but ***** about them.

 

[Thalassamania]

I agree completely.

But here is how the Instructor can try to make a difference:

I can embrace the things that the agency does well.

Not be argumentative but name three.

Instead of being frustrated and feeling constrained, I strive to do the best possible job educating divers, that I can.

If that’s the excitement you’re looking for why not see how well you can teach if eliminate all words with the letter “R,” that would be as reasonable a challenge. I don’t teach to see how good a job I can do despite an agency’s stupidity.

I wouldn't mind being asked by the agency to adhere to higher standards, but they aren't standing around our pool making me lower my standards.

To teach a PADI program I’d have to significantly lower my standards.

Our dive center has certified thousands of divers. Every one of them had to do the 200 meter swim, and a 10 minute survival float. That is our dive center's policy.

So what? Mine have to swim 450, snorkel an 900, etc. So what?

Our I made my own set of laminated cue cards that incorporate all required standards, resequence them within standards, and have the addition of a few of my own.

Why should you have to resequence them? What stupidity.

For example, at the end of CW 2, the PADI cue card says, "fun and skills practice." My card says, "4 full laps horizontal /neutral buoyancy. Use a different finning technique for each lap. CW 3, CW 4, and CW 5 add even more elements during the "Skills and funtime." section.

Sure, what you’re doing is better than the PADI bare minimum, but is it as good as you could do outside of their constrictions? I think not.

This is not refruting the fact that the capable and competent instructor is constrained. It is just an example of how a dive center and that instructor can work within the legal framework and do a better job.

No it’s not a refutation, it’s as I suggested in another post, it an apologia for being a PADI Instructor, It’s OK, you’re forgiven, the hail Cronins, a full recitation of CW1, chant the index of the PADI Encyclopedia, you will be forgiven my son.

We are all responsible for the effects of our actions and our words. Marketing, in this context is still just another word for lies. Just because Budweiser lies, does that make it OK? BTW: Anheuser-Busch sued a Czech company Budvar that has been in the beer business since the 12th century over the use of the name. Budvar claims the sole rights to the Budweiser name because only it makes its beer in Budweis (the German name for Ceske Budejovice) after which the brew is named. Anheuser-Busch refutes the claim, saying it was the first to register the trademark worldwide. I’m an educator and and academic, I can’t shrug lies off as marketing.

The issues are not if AOW program is fun or if it’s worthwhile, or it being done responsibly. The issue (at least to me) is what damage did the marketing of that program do to the arguably superior structure that was is place previously? Are we not responsible for the track that we leave in the forest and the garbage we dump on the shore?

 

[Thalassamania]

Let me say that I am aware (through your user profile) of your background and experience. My experience is much more limited, so obviously I can only speak from it.

That’s all that any of us can do.

I teach PADI because the best instructors I have ever met were PADI. In fairness, the worst intructor I ever met was PADI also. The overwhelming majority of instructors I have ever met are PADI. As I said, I have worked hard to be the best instructor I can be, and have yet to be convinced that PADI controls my every move. Despite what has been suggested in this thread, I believe PADI does encourage creativity, as long as it is within it's standards. I have had numerous conversations with the staff CDs, when I have had questions reguarding ways that I might be creative and stay within those standards, and I have allways found them to be very open to this.

Let’s try a different tack. Have you ever conducted a pool session where no one was permitted to speak? Where no one was permitted to surface, touch bottom or touch the side of the pool? Do you think that might be interesting? Let me assure you that it is both interesting and immensely rewarding both from a student and instructor point of view. But can you do that? Can you even try that? No, you lessons are preordained and don’t lend themselves to that sort of change. You can’t step outside the box. And why not? Because PADI said so. And just who the hell is PADI to say so? Were they hired after a national search and a long grueling series of interviews determined that they know more about diving and teaching than just about anybody? Hardly.

Perhaps with as much exposure to some of the other agencies as you have had, I may well have a different perspective. But believe me when I say that when making my choice as to weather or not to be a PADI instructor, I was inspired by those instructors that I refered to as the best ones. I believe the structure of the PADI system will allow me to hopefully be as great an instructor as they are one day.

I sincerely hope so. You are clearly a thinking instructor who wants to do well. I’m quite sure that some day, with great effort and perseverance you will reach your goal of being as great an instructor as your mentors are. But you see, I’d like to see you be a better instructor than they ever dreamed of. And you could be. Thank about it.

I have every confidence that other agencies would also allow me that same oppertunity, and It carries a lot of weight that someone with as much experience as yourself feels the way you do.

It’s not the agency, it’s not the instructor, it’s the instructor’s ability to learn and grow and discover his or her full potential. It should not be about what an agency permits, it should be about what you’ve learned works.

But to be honest, as I read your posts I often find that the experience and potential for education becomes over shadowed by negativity and percieved bias/hatred.

I do not suffer fools gladly. I have no use for organizations that attempt to control things and suppress discourse and lie and cheat in order to pump up their own bottom line. When the emperor is naked I have no problem with pointing it out. If that’s negative, or biased or expressive of hatred, so be it, I really don’t give a damn.

 

[J.R.]

I see your point, and regardless of what I think, I believe you are not alone or out of line with your feelings, so I have no need to argue with them.

Thanks

Fair enough... and, thank you as well...

 

[mjatkins]

Let’s try a different tack. Have you ever conducted a pool session where no one was permitted to speak? Where no one was permitted to surface, touch bottom or touch the side of the pool? Do you think that might be interesting?

Honestly I have never conceived of the idea. As confined water session #4 (not including the skin diving skills portion) is the only one that doesn't include some form of surface skill, it would be the only one that I could see applying these restraints to, without going outside of PADI standards. And allthough I can't so far envision any benefit to putting these restraints in place, I am not currently aware of any PADI standard that says I'm not allowed to if I choose. I have yet to see in print "the student must be allowed to touch the sides" etc.

And just who the hell is PADI to say so? Were they hired after a national search and a long grueling series of interviews determined that they know more about diving and teaching than just about anybody? Hardly.

I see your point, and from your background and perspective this opinion makes some sense. I would submit though, that PADI's collective knowledge is more than mine, and more than most people's. And since my experience thus far is that the overwhelming majority of PADI staff that I have had contact with were (seemed to me) knowlegable, reasonable, and appeared to have divers/students best interests in mind, when I combine all those things together it leaves me feeling pretty good about the possibilities that PADI offers to me and my students. In my opinion there is more to being the best teacher than having the most knowledge.

Thanks

 

[Divedoggie]

Not be argumentative but name three.

Just for fun...here are three:

Marketing - gets potential divers in the door.
Available resources(PADI Pro website, Power point presentations, DVDs, many books.)
Systematic approach to every program - Instructor has a base outline for every program.

If that’s the excitement you’re looking for why not see how well you can teach if eliminate all words with the letter “R,” that would be as reasonable a challenge. I don’t teach to see how good a job I can do despite an agency’s stupidity.

You may be right, but I'm not going to stop trying.

To teach a PADI program I’d have to significantly lower my standards.
So what? Mine have to swim 450, snorkel an 900, etc. So what?

I was merely pointing out that we do have a swimming standard at our dive center. Not as tough as yours.

Why should you have to resequence them? What stupidity.
Sure, what you’re doing is better than the PADI bare minimum, but is it as good as you could do outside of their constrictions? I think not.

The training slates have a recommended training sequence and overview.
I use a sequence that I find most logical. My laminated card also has bigger print, which you can probably appreciate!

No it’s not a refutation, it’s as I suggested in another post, it an apologia for being a PADI Instructor, It’s OK, you’re forgiven, the hail Cronins, a full recitation of CW1, chant the index of the PADI Encyclopedia, you will be forgiven my son.

While I agree, for the most part, with your premises, I am not writing an apologia.
Your standards, as have been discussed, are a hard sell.
There has to be balance. Are you going to start an agency, market it, train instructors, and keep them employed? Sign me up!
The industry needs to stay healthy. I am a diving instructor working within the confines of an agency, but never the less, working.

We are all responsible for the effects of our actions and our words. Marketing, in this context is still just another word for lies. Just because Budweiser lies, does that make it OK?..... I’m an educator and and academic, I can’t shrug lies off as marketing

Who is shrugging? Marketing in this day and age, is lying. Everything is wrapped up in a presentable package. Even the news. And they will hand you the package you want depending on which channel you watch.
It is what it is. I don't like it either. I'm old school too. I remember when a product was sold on its merits, how well it was built, its warranty, etc.

This is the essence of the whole debate. If the quality of the product was what was selling the product, we would have much higher standards across the board, with all of the agencies.

What are we going to do about it?

Until someone gives me a better idea, I'm going to teach the best standards that I can, under the conditions that we are all discussing.

You summed it up perfectly:

The issues are not if AOW program is fun or if it’s worthwhile, or it being done responsibly. The issue (at least to me) is what damage did the marketing of that program do to the arguably superior structure that was is place previously? Are we not responsible for the track that we leave in the forest and the garbage we dump on the shore?

 

[Walter]

I am going to start a thread in the I to I forum with suggestions on modifications to the minimum requirements for Open Water certification and hope all of the instructors on here help contribute to it.

It's already been done.