AOW Disappointment

[mjatkins]

Not gonna' bite... not gonna' bite...
Still not gonna' bite...
Ah... a question... Let's see... there was no "ocean" experience, rolling boats or fish larger than a really cool bass that I wished the quarry would let us fish. I didn't get into decompression, stress exercises, etc., etc., etc. No insturctor can cover EVERYTHING you're going to run into... thus the arugement that your C-card is a 'learner's permit'... Not ment to be a slam to anybody's ego... simply a statement of fact. It's a 'philosophic viewpoint'... not a literal one.

Now... this being said... it's really hard to get a lot of dive condition varieties in the lakes and quarrys of the midwest. No... the instructor did a fine job give us the basics... (a PADI instructor by the way)... I understand my equipment... the tables... the theory and basic practice...

... what needs to happen? Another fine and fair question... the answer is simple, "Experience."

Pardon me if this sounds 'simplistic'... but experience isn't something you get in one or two dives... it comes in time. I have actually been certified since 1970 (NASDS)... but I laid off for some dumb reason for a lot of years... I'm getting back into it... ASSUMING you know all the answers is, in my experience... the first step toward that catastrophic cascade that causes real problems.

I find it interesting that DAN identifies the greatest risk groups as those with less than one year... and those with 10 or more... sez' something.

When I say there are those with "C-cards" and there are 'divers'... I'm actually refering to a dive attitude... but, I think you knew that.

Thanks for asking... your milage may vary...

JR, I am not trying to get you to bite. I was only trying to describe what I thought was you making an incorrect conclusion about what was being said. It obviously felt to you like I was trying to imply something that I wasn't, but I do see how it can be taken that way so to you I offer an apology. No disrespect was intended.

Thank you for your responces to the questions. I see your point, and regardless of what I think, I believe you are not alone or out of line with your feelings, so I have no need to argue with them.

Thanks

 

[Karibelle]

Well, in a word, no... the "emergency" procedures imply (1) an emergency and (2) teach nothing about decompression profiles, and (3) I've seen a lot - hundreds and hundreds - of PADI students come through places where I've had my own classes over the years, and I can count on one hand how many of those could hold a deco stop for 30 seconds.
Rick

1) In PADIspeak, the "emergency" is that one has exceeded a NDL. So why isn't it just a deco stop?
2) Can you elaborate on what the "decompression profile" should be for a dive that is only one or two pressure groups outside of a NDL? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm just not a deco diver...
3) That's a skills issue, not an education issue, isn't it? Is there a difference between a "deco stop" and what I think of as a "safety stop"?

going to read your link...
kari

 

[MikeFerrara]

Thanks for the response.

I don't disagree with anything you've said outright, and do keep in mind that my perspective is only PADI.

It does seem like this is not a "PADI" argument, but rather a "standards" argument, or an "OW training" argument, that for some reason uses PADI as its fulcrum. I'm all for having a discussion about minimum standards for open water training and whether or not they are appropriate, across agencies. Your post, like the others, ended up shedding no light on "what is the problem with PADI."

So have we started the "what is the problem with the minimum standards for OW training?" thread yet?

kari

Well, a problem with PADI standards (I think there are some) is a problem with PADI whether or not there are other agencies that have a similar problem. It is true, that the aspects of the training standards that I view as problems are probably shared by quit a few agencies, though, I don't have the standards of those other agencies available to review directly.

We've had lot of threads on the board concerning OW training. It could hurt to have another or bring one of the old ones back to life.

 

[Walter]

Walter's earlier explanation of the article (even though he never made the claim) makes it seem as though the court ruled the article was libel. This was not what happened. I hope everyone is able to agree on that at least.

<patiently waits for article email attachment from Walter>

How so? I don't believe I mentioned anything about the ruling other than the fact PADI was ordered to pay my legal expenses and to pay Diverlink's. In what way did my post make it look like PADI won the suit?

Be patient a little longer, the attachments are on my home computer.

As Walter correctly pointed out, all of the agencies are basically in the same boat with respect to their AOW class/course/certification....for sake of completeness.


PADI has already been referenced, so lets look at the other RSTC Members
(YMCA, SDI, SSI, PDIC, IDEA -- where is NAUI?)

PADI's AOW and YMCA's AOW are almost identical. Both have 5 dives in various areas (I believe there may be minor differences on which dives are required) with virtually no academics in either. NAUI's AOW (they are not a member of the RSTC) is slightly better with academics and an additional dive. YMCA also has a Silver Advanced is the best widely available (although with YMCA's small size there may not be an instructor in your area) advanced class with academics and 10 dives. For years, this was YMCA's only advanced class. I was not happy when YMCA undermined itself with the addition of the AOW class. The cream of the crop is LA County's Advanced Diver Program. If you live in southern California, I'd recommend taking the 10 weeks or so necessary to complete the class this summer.

 

[mjatkins]

I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s a fair comment. I don&#8217;t doubt that you, and many of your PADI peers, work hard to be the best that that you can. I&#8217;d suggest to you that you are limited in that goal by the structure that you choose to be governed by. And be honest for a moment, don&#8217;t you really feel that way too? Almost every PADI Instructor I know has a &#8230; &#8220;but they&#8217;re the largest&#8221; or a &#8220;the shop is PADI&#8221; or some other rationalization as to why they do what they do. None ever say proudly, &#8220;I teach PADI because its training system produces the best divers.&#8221; Once again it is not a question of adding a skill or deleting an item, it is a question of basic philosophy or working in a structure that trusts you to do good well vs. a structure that thinks you an idiot and controls your every move. It&#8217;s a question of belonging to a an organization who&#8217;s history you can be proud of or one with a shady past of double dealing and conflict of interest.

Let me say that I am aware (through your user profile) of your background and experience. My experience is much more limited, so obviously I can only speak from it.

Are you ready for it.......

I teach PADI because the best instructors I have ever met were PADI. In fairness, the worst intructor I ever met was PADI also. The overwhelming majority of instructors I have ever met are PADI. As I said, I have worked hard to be the best instructor I can be, and have yet to be convinced that PADI controls my every move. Despite what has been suggested in this thread, I believe PADI does encourage creativity, as long as it is within it's standards. I have had numerous conversations with the staff CDs, when I have had questions reguarding ways that I might be creative and stay within those standards, and I have allways found them to be very open to this.

Perhaps with as much exposure to some of the other agencies as you have had, I may well have a different perspective. But believe me when I say that when making my choice as to weather or not to be a PADI instructor, I was inspired by those instructors that I refered to as the best ones. I believe the structure of the PADI system will allow me to hopefully be as great an instructor as they are one day.

I have every confidence that other agencies would also allow me that same oppertunity, and It carries a lot of weight that someone with as much experience as yourself feels the way you do. But to be honest, as I read your posts I often find that the experience and potential for education becomes over shadowed by negativity and percieved bias/hatred.

 

[rakkis]

How so? I don't believe I mentioned anything about the ruling other than the fact PADI was ordered to pay my legal expenses and to pay Diverlink's. In what way did my post make it look like PADI won the suit?

Err.. brain fart.

That should have been:

... makes it seem as though the court ruled the article was not libel. ...

 

[mjatkins]

Uhuh. I rarely see the need to respond to the type of thinking he has shown. He doesn't understand the Padi philosophy as we have already described at length.

Quite right Steve. I believe this was my point. You rarely see the need to respond to the type of thinking I have shown. And just to recap, my thought was that you have not described much of anything at length, and have engaged in "unsubstantiated mud slinging out from behind the bigger boys on the playground." So far your posts addressing my thought have only added weight to my argument.

 

[mjatkins]

I made this comment in an earlier post to Thalassamania, and have edited it out of the original post. In order to be open about my mistake I have left this appoplogy for the comment in tact.

As an example, your comment above " I don&#8217;t doubt that you, and many of your PADI peers, work hard to be the best that that you can." You have never met me, and have absolutely no way of making this judgment about me except out of a need to be negative. I'm not sure if this statement was designed simply to be inflamatory, but I believe it says much more about you than it does about me.

Thalassamania, please forgive the above statement. I miss read your comment as "I doubt that you..." Going back now a rereading it I see the mistake that I made, and it obviously makes my reaction unfounded.

Matthew

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I too believe this discussion should be moved to the I to I forum ... because there is nothing going on here that would be of benefit to the new diver looking for information on an AOW program.

Seems to me that all of the participants in this discussion are, or have been, dive instructors. And while there's potential value in the discussion, I don't see the benefit to the new diver.

Now, if y'all want to discuss, instead, what a new diver should look for in an AOW class then I'd say this is the place for that discussion ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Walter]

Err.. brain fart.

That should have been:

... makes it seem as though the court ruled the article was not libel. ...

Now it's clear. Thank you.

The court did not rule on the merits of the case, they merely bounced it from the system. I actually expected it to get bounced on an entirely different point. The suit was not filed in a timely manner. I would have preferred the court rule on the merits of the case.