AOW Disappointment

[Thalassamania]

But now we have conceived of it... through this discussion. And when you first had that idea, it was through watching students and trying to think of ways to improve your teaching methods? or was it prescribed by the standards of an agency?

I think there is a vast multitude of things that you, Thalassamania, have conceived of that I haven't even begun to consider - and I submit that many (most?) of those things come to you from experience, rather than agency. The experiments that you tried. Can you share some other experiments that you have tried, and that are improving the skills of students?

kari

Yes I could, but frankly a list of the techniques I use, taken out of the context of the class I teach will not translate to a 20 hr quicky class that it predicated on a PADi defined skill order. They are not compatable.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Yes I could, but frankly a list of the techniques I use, taken out of the context of the class I teach will not translate to a 20 hr quicky class that it predicated on a PADi defined skill order. They are not compatable.

Now there's a mouthful! On the other hand, there are techniques that can address some of the more egregious deficiencies even inside the 20 hour envelope if they are stressed from the beginning. For example, try a class where the students never kneel on the bottom.
Rick

 

[Thalassamania]

Now there's a mouthful! On the other hand, there are techniques that can address some of the more egregious deficiencies even inside the 20 hour envelope if they are stressed from the beginning. For example, try a class where the students never kneel on the bottom.
Rick

Yes, I was thinking about that and I've posted a bunch of stuff, tips for mask clearing and such that would translate. I wonder if even the don't touch the sides, don't touch the bottom, don't surface thing that we do would work in the 20 hr. world. I have my doubts.

 

[SparticleBrane]

I would venture that it doesn't.
In our program if we tell them to not touch the bottom (especially in the rescue class where not all the students went through our basic class), sometimes the first thing they do is drop down and stand on the bottom. It isn't because they can't hover (as a general rule they can, to a reasonable level). It's because they're just...boneheaded.

 

[Karibelle]

Yes I could, but frankly a list of the techniques I use, taken out of the context of the class I teach will not translate to a 20 hr quicky class that it predicated on a PADi defined skill order. They are not compatable.

Well alright then; I'll just continue to learn from my own experience, as I suspect you did. I was trying to learn a trick or two from you - taking a shortcut, I suppose...

kari

 

[djanni]

Sorry about your situation.

I can't say that about my PADI AOW experience and in retrospect I'm gald about it. We were in Hawaii. We had an early 30's German female instructor. Tiny little thing and tough as nails. The first time she grabed me underwater shaking her finger in my face and then berated me when back on borad was when is wasn't perfectly fist over fist while going up the line. She didn't want to see an eighth of inch. It got worse after that. I thought she was going fail me on Navigation... but finally I got it. She expected you to do it the right way and expected you to learn and learn a few things we did.

 

[djanni]

I would venture that it doesn't.
In our program if we tell them to not touch the bottom (especially in the rescue class where not all the students went through our basic class), sometimes the first thing they do is drop down and stand on the bottom. It isn't because they can't hover (as a general rule they can, to a reasonable level). It's because they're just...boneheaded.

...boneheaded! Now that was FUNNY!

 

[mobster75]

Sorry about your situation.

I can't say that about my PADI AOW experience and in retrospect I'm gald about it. We were in Hawaii. We had an early 30's German female instructor. Tiny little thing and tough as nails. The first time she grabed me underwater shaking her finger in my face and then berated me when back on borad was when is wasn't perfectly fist over fist while going up the line. She didn't want to see an eighth of inch. It got worse after that. I thought she was going fail me on Navigation... but finally I got it. She expected you to do it the right way and expected you to learn and learn a few things we did.

Sigh.... Some of us like it rough....

 

[Oregon Duck]

Wow, what a thread! After reading through it I feel compelled to chime in as a newbie to the board.

I first dove solo without any (as in zero) training at 16 y/o in Lake Michigan in 1977. Dropped off from a Whaler and later picked up. Over the side I went, over weighted and without any BCD. No SPG, no depth gauge, just a tank of air and a wetsuit, mask and fins. I loved it but struggled to regain the surface even though a MVP sprinter. Probably should've died then, looking back. Did OW and AOW via the University of Iowa for PE credit in 1980. These courses were a quarter long and intensive. We dove in quarry water with enough vis to barely see our wrist compasses for nav. It was fun. But after getting AOW I did ten or so dives at various sites in the Midwest and then dropped out for the past 25 years.

Flash forward to the present. I just got back into the sport when our 8 y/o daughter received a Make a Wish trip (very mixed blessing) to the Atlantis Resort in Bahamas for a dolphin swim and I realized I had to dive while there. While I like my LDS and the instructors (PADI), the courses (retaking due to my prolonged absence) are not nearly as intensive as the originals.

But I will make this observation from my peculiar personal history: New divers typically have a (short term) reason for getting certified. Originally, mine was a simple desire to learn and explore (thanks Jacques Cousteau!). This time, it was getting on a charter boat with renewed skills. I believe (as has been said) most OW divers are doing it for the tourist diving alone. That said, I can't personally fault PADI or any other organization for making it as simple as possible to accomplish safely. I believe it's up to the instructors to create an experience that (1) educates the students to safety and efficiency in diving, and (2) provides the students with a new perspective on the sport - one which promotes an interest in taking it further intellectually, similar to what a professor might do with a university student.

It's up to you educators, not PADI or NAUI or YMCA or any other formal organization. It's up the the individuals who instruct us. And then it's up to us. That's what is compelling about the Harvard vs. OSU analogy raised earlier. My (personal) example would be law school. The courses are essentially the same across the accredited board to obtain a Juris Doctor degree. It's the instructors methods that make the difference in the end, not the price of the degree or the hall you sat in and whether it was covered in ivy. And then, it's what the student/graduate does with it.

I get what I can from my local instructors. I get a lot from this board, too. And then it's trial and (hopefully not much) error. I'm in the middle of my second AOW course - 25 years later! I'm enjoying it. It's a bit over-priced for 5 dives with a few specialty programs, but I consider the extra a donation to the much appreciated LDS (thanks Pam!).

But what I am interested in is what you experts would recommend in terms of course work and training to someone with less than 50 dives. The AOW course (or program, whichever), is pretty clearly not a big step. I'm assuming the Nitrox course is much the same. It does kind of piss me off that it's $250 to obtain cert to use it. Now that seems like a scam. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And thanks for all the useful info!

- OD

 

[Thalassamania]

That said, I can't personally fault PADI or any other organization for making it as simple as possible to accomplish safely.

It has not been demonstrated or stipulated that this is being accomplished with respect to the student or the environment.

I believe it's up to the instructors to create an experience that (1) educates the students to safety and efficiency in diving, and (2) provides the students with a new perspective on the sport - one which promotes an interest in taking it further intellectually, similar to what a professor might do with a university student.

It is the option of many experts that the very standards promulgated by the training agencies prevent both these things from happening.

It's up to you educators, not PADI or NAUI or YMCA or any other formal organization. It's up the the individuals who instruct us. And then it's up to us.

What an “educator” can do is severely limited by what the agency permits.

That's what is compelling about the Harvard vs. OSU analogy raised earlier. My (personal) example would be law school. The courses are essentially the same across the accredited board to obtain a Juris Doctor degree. It's the instructors methods that make the difference in the end, not the price of the degree or the hall you sat in and whether it was covered in ivy. And then, it's what the student/graduate does with it.

You analogy is flawed. To extend it and make sense of it you’d need to be comparing the training of paralegals in a strip mall storefront to doing a JD at a university.

I get what I can from my local instructors. I get a lot from this board, too. And then it's trial and (hopefully not much) error. I'm in the middle of my second AOW course - 25 years later! I'm enjoying it. It's a bit over-priced for 5 dives with a few specialty programs, but I consider the extra a donation to the much appreciated LDS (thanks Pam!).

But what I am interested in is what you experts would recommend in terms of course work and training to someone with less than 50 dives. The AOW course (or program, whichever), is pretty clearly not a big step. I'm assuming the Nitrox course is much the same. It does kind of piss me off that it's $250 to obtain cert to use it. Now that seems like a scam. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You’re right. There are really only two post-entry courses that I have respect for, one is the LA County Advanced Diver course the other is the NAUI Master Diver Course (do not confuse either with other agency courses with similar names, only the names are similar).