AOW Disappointment

[Karibelle]

I use PADI standards to point out what I see as deficiencies in dive training because I was a PADI instructor, know the standards and have a copy in front of me.

Thanks for the response.

I don't disagree with anything you've said outright, and do keep in mind that my perspective is only PADI.

It does seem like this is not a "PADI" argument, but rather a "standards" argument, or an "OW training" argument, that for some reason uses PADI as its fulcrum. I'm all for having a discussion about minimum standards for open water training and whether or not they are appropriate, across agencies. Your post, like the others, ended up shedding no light on "what is the problem with PADI."

So have we started the "what is the problem with the minimum standards for OW training?" thread yet?

kari

 

[Karibelle]

Don't get me wrong, I don't care what padi does, or who wants to run with them. My point here is people need to see things for what they are and make a personal decison based on that.

Mike's post clearly indicated he found problems with all agency standards, and was using PADI as an example as that was the manual he happened to have. Perhaps you also have a reading comprehension problem?

What agency do you teach with? I may be interested in taking a course with you, and would like that information to help me make a personal decision...

kari

 

[Otter]

As Walter correctly pointed out, all of the agencies are basically in the same boat with respect to their AOW class/course/certification....for sake of completeness.


PADI has already been referenced, so lets look at the other RSTC Members
(YMCA, SDI, SSI, PDIC, IDEA -- where is NAUI?)

From the YMCA Website --

Advanced Open Water Diver

The YMCA Advanced Open Water Diver course is for divers who want to expand their knowledge and diving experience to include a variety of diving environments. The course provides an introduction to specialty diving, and features five open water dives, including a night dive. This course is highly recommended for all newly certified Open Water divers, to help them gain experience and comfort in the underwater world.

From the SDI Website

You’ve taken your open water scuba diver course and now your ready to expand your knowledge but you would like to see what is out there first. The SDI Advanced Adventure Diver course will give you an overview of five (5) selected SDI specialties. Two of the specialties are SDI Deep Diver and Navigations Diver, which are the foundation of continuing diver education. The remaining specialties include

* Advanced Buoyancy Control
* Altitude, Boat
* Computer Nitrox
* Drift
* Marine Ecosystem Awareness
* Many More!

This course is intended to introduce you to each of the five (5) specialties and not complete comprehension of the chosen specialty. One (1) dive from each of the chosen specialties may apply towards a complete specialty certification.

 

[ehuber]

We've been writing about this subject for quite some time, the thread continues to re-appear, and yet on it goes endlessly through the forums. There should be a sticky that covers AOW objectives, types of dives, and sums up the subtle differences in the agencies offering it.

Then when someone else starts this topic, we can send them directly to the sticky and tell them AOW is simply a means to an end and an introduction into more complex recreational dives.

 

[Otter]

I was going to post the remaining ones, but Rakkis is right....the horse is dead...

This is not a PADI issue, its a instructor issue. IF the instructor was a PADI, YMCA, or SDI instructor he/she violated standards and should be reported. The rest of the soapbox is immaterial to the OP.

What would be perhaps useful would be which standards are deficient and why they should be added. This document could then be submitted to RSTC.

Anyone up for something constructive like that?

 

[Otter]

Exactly right. I've not claimed otherwise. Was there a point?

Thanks for shedding more light on it, Otter.

After reading the appeal ruling, I concur with you. The issue of whether the article represented libel was never resolved by the courts. Only the fact that Diverlink (as an electronic media publisher) was not responsible for the article - regardless of what it said.

Walter's earlier explanation of the article (even though he never made the claim) makes it seem as though the court ruled the article was libel. This was not what happened. I hope everyone is able to agree on that at least.

<patiently waits for article email attachment from Walter>

Point made....

 

[mjatkins]

Then I guess we'll agree you just can't read.

We who Steve?

 

[rakkis]

A ScubaBoard ammendment for RSTC

Sounds great in principle, but realistically, we won't be able to agree on where to stop. There will always be someone that wants to add yet another requirement or extend another one.

Has this been tried before? I think we should definitively give it a go. But before we start doing the details, we need to come to a consensus on general areas and limitations - since we already know we won't satisfy everyone.

I propose we move this discussion to I2I.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Theory-wise - for just a couple of pressure groups outside the NDL would be covered in the emergency decompression procedures that PADI teaches from its RDP. Do you think that a thorough teaching of the tables, including those procedures and when and why you'd use them would suffice?

Well, in a word, no... the "emergency" procedures imply (1) an emergency and (2) teach nothing about decompression profiles, and (3) I've seen a lot - hundreds and hundreds - of PADI students come through places where I've had my own classes over the years, and I can count on one hand how many of those could hold a deco stop for 30 seconds.

The gap I see in skill training is the ability to plan and to track gas consumption. How do you talk to students about that subject, and is it something you start from the very beginning?

See this thread...
Rick

 

[Divedoggie]

When an agency limits what an instructor can do by defining the exact skills that must be taught, the exact way in which those skills must be taught and even the exact order that the skills must be taught in, it is a doubled edged sword. This approach is of great help to the marginal instructor. Given this sort of rigid framework he or she might be able to turn out a student that meets the learning objectives of the course (and let’s not argue about the appropriateness of those objectives for the moment). But the truly capable and competent instructor will be constrained by this sort of rigidity and while meeting the aforementioned learning objectives will be limited to that and nothing more (and that’s where we can get into a discussion of the appropriateness of those objectives). Within a constrained training system the individual instructor’s contribution to the outcome is reduced, but the public is protected against the screw up.

I agree completely.

But here is how the Instructor can try to make a difference:

I can embrace the things that the agency does well.
Instead of being frustrated and feeling constrained, I strive to do the best possible job educating divers, that I can. I wouldn't mind being asked by the agency to adhere to higher standards, but they aren't standing around our pool making me lower my standards.

Our dive center has certified thousands of divers. Every one of them had to do the 200 meter swim, and a 10 minute survival float. That is our dive center's policy.
I made my own set of laminated cue cards that incorporate all required standards, resequence them within standards, and have the addition of a few of my own.

For example, at the end of CW 2, the PADI cue card says, "fun and skills practice." My card says, "4 full laps horizontal /neutral buoyancy. Use a different finning technique for each lap. CW 3, CW 4, and CW 5 add even more elements during the "Skills and funtime." section.

This is not refruting the fact that the capable and competent instructor is constrained. It is just an example of how a dive center and that instructor can work within the legal framework and do a better job.

That’s not unfortunate, that’s premeditated. Now we have “Adventures” instead, as much of a misnomer as “Advanced,” (just trendier for the moment) sort of like a trip to “Adventureland” to wait in line for an “Adventure.” What crap.

Commercial land, home of the gullible, land of the label.
I used the word "Advanced", with tongue in cheek. Advanced, Adventure, whatever!
We know that its marketing! And its good marketing! Is Budweiser REALLY the King of Beers? You are right! Its all crap!

The AOW program is still fun and worthwhile if done responsibly. It can still be a good experience. I did the AOW years ago with a group of friends, and we all loved it! It started me on my way to really pursue diving again. (After a decade away from it.)
None of us walked away from the 5th dive thinking we were hot s*** advanced guys now.