AOW Disappointment

[GA Under Water]

you know, no one ever mentions "Adventure Diver" This is the C-Card you get after completing 3 adventure dives and the KRs. Maybe Cut out that C-Card and call it "Adventurer" instead of "Advanced" That would prolly shut most up.

I am not complaining because my Wife is OWD and after I took AOW and she didn't, I WAS more Advanced that she in Diving.


Either way, since everyone says AOW isn't Advanced, when should a Diver be labled as "Advanced" Should it come before or after Rescue Diver? Or maybe you think it would be better instead of having "Master Scuba Diver" that could be "Advanced Open Water." But then after 5 specialties and rescue, who would settle for "Advanced Open Water" No One!! I don't think there is a one of us here that would like to loose the title "Open Water Diver" for "Rescue Diver" just to be knocked back down to "Advanced Open Water" Pay attention to the big picture.

Open water
Advanced Open water
Rescue
Master SCUBA
Dive Master
Instructor

Tell me where YOU think Advanced should be placed.

 

[Walter]

How about instead just accepting that customer demand drives the industry, and that PADI fills that demand?

Everyone understands this. An instant gratification society demands fast and cheap, quality be damned. OTOH, there is a small minority that appreciates quality. They understand that quality takes longer and costs more. I understand both concepts and I fully support anyone's right to choose instant gratification and the way the world learns to dive or to choose a quality program instead. My only objection is to people misleading consumers.

"All agencies have the same standards." "The RSTC sets standards for all member agencies." "The agency doesn't matter." "The instructor makes the difference." "All agencies teach basically the same thing."

These are all examples of contemptible lies. Unfortunately, they've been repeated so often that most folks who use them actually believe what they are saying.

So jviehe, stop claiming things other than PADI is filling the largest niche (instant gratification - not quality) in the market and we'll rarely disagree.

 

[Steve R]

.....If you guys spent as much time teaching the way you want for whatever agency you want.........

And further to your excellent post Walter, you more than likely would have to explain to our current Padi Instructor that his quote above in some cases would put the instructor doing as he suggests, outside of Padi standards, and is most certainly NOT in line with Padi Training philosophy.

I'm beginning to wonder if this boy even is a Padi instructor, as it seems every time he opens his yap he's stating something he thinks is inline with Padi's ideas, but seems to be continually incorrect in his assumptions.

 

[ehuber]

Advanced Open Water Certification is really nothing more than continued training in certain types of common specialty dives. To suggest "advanced" would be to assume they all had quality experience in the types of dives they've just been trained in... which is highly unlikely.

An advanced diver, to me, is someone who is committed to lifelong learning, actively dives on a regular basis, has superior buoyancy control with good equipment, and takes dive planning very seriously.

I would argue that most divers will never achieve this level, regardless of certification, due to a deficiency.

 

[GA Under Water]

Advanced Open Water Certification is really nothing more than continued training in certain types of common specialty dives. To suggest "advanced" would be to assume they all had quality experience in the types of dives they've just been trained in... which is highly unlikely.

An advanced diver, to me, is someone who is committed to lifelong learning, actively dives on a regular basis, has superior buoyancy control with good equipment, and takes dive planning very seriously.

I would argue that most divers will never achieve this level, regardless of certification, due to a deficiency.

But with the extra training, are divers advanced beyond Open water Diver training?

 

[fisherdvm]

I kind of wonder if AOW is an artificial measuring stick. Kinda like, if you are a kid 10-11, you stay above 40 ft. If you are a kid 12 and above, you stay above 60 ft. If you are AOW, you can go below 60 ft.

It is kinda like a license to drive a car. You might have one, but it doesn't mean that you are safe on the road.

To me, an advanced diver is someone who does more than 50 dives a year. Which is not me. I am always going to be a beginner.

 

[Rick Murchison]

How's this for an end run???
Bear in mind that these rating similarities are for access and do not imply skills equivalency. For example, our students would never be taught to kneel on the bottom.
All requirements would be cumulative
Apprentice Scuba Diver - like PADI's "Scuba Diver" the Apprentice would require direct supervision from a dive professional
Scuba Diver Third Class (Card would read "Scuba Diver/3") - OW diver but with Nitrox and buoyancy skills. Can dive with a qualified buddy.
Scuba Diver Second Class (/2) - 25 logged dives plus a course similar to AOW + 3 dives in the 100 - 130 FSW range
Scuba Diver First Class (/1) - 50 logged dives, SLAM & basic deco.
Full Scuba Diver - 75 logged dives, "Master Diver" course + basic overhead (cavern/wreck); 10 night dives, 10 dives over 100', 10 decompression dives...
We could still issue "Specialty" or "experience" cards for those who want them
Rick

 

[J.R.]

My two pence...

All certs are nothing more than "learner's permits"... the real education comes when you take the training wheels off... and, if you're lucky... keeps coming long after.

Anybody who believes that ANY cert course 'qualifies' them at anything (other than taking classes) is suffering from 'cranial-rectal inversion' issues... my sense of the OP is that they wanted more... and I applaud this... but mass producton cert packages aren't gonna' give it to ya'... if ya' buy Wal-Mart... ya' get Wal-Mart.

... and then ya' got your geographic issues... I had some really great instructors... good teaching techniqe... held to a standard... asked questions and demanded answers... but, ya' know... I got my AOW (PADI) in the Midwest... and the only real similarity between quarry and pond diving is that there's water involved. Quarrys don't teach you about current, surge, bouncing dive boats, variations in group personalities, fire coral, etc., etc., etc... but then... no two dive sites are the same either.

Now... that being said, having dipped my toes back into dive classes, my *preference* is NAUI. My instructors are the same as they would be with PADI courses... its the MATERIAL that differs. No so much in content... but in presentation. Maybe its just presentation... maybe its all the nifty formulas and more 'techy' feel of the NAUI course... but I *feel* more informed after a NAUI course...

... but then... I refer to my opening statement... even NAUI isn't anything more than a learner's permit... they give you the basics... point you in a direction and say, "Now that you know what it is you need to know... go learn it."

The questions SHOULD be (in my humble opinion)... "... for those who want industrial grade training... where do ya' go to get it?"

Diver's are made by diving... not by reading books...

 

[GA Under Water]

I think everyone is focusing too much on the one word of the cert. "Advanced" and not the Whole name "Advanced Open Water" It just means you have advanced your knowledge above the base for Open Water Diver. If you had Dive Master then took another more advanced class to get "Advanced Dive Master" would there be the same agruement?

Anytime you take more detailed training, you are advanced above what you last learned. Say you are OWD and decide to use "Search and Recovery" as an adventure dive. You have to study the "Adventures in Diving" Manual and test your knowledge to do the dive. You have to prove to your instructor that you know the advanced information on Search and Recovery to be credited for the Dive. This is advanced knowledge when compared to the OWD manual. Which in turn you Advance you knowledge when you take the Rescue Diver, DM, Specialties etc. Every step is Advancement above what you previously learned.

I see no issues with the naming standard or the course. then again, I don't know what I don't know

 

[J.R.]

How's this for an end run???

Ya' left out "Chief", "Senior Chief" and "Master Chief" divers! :11doh: