Anti ScubaPro bias?

[scubafanatic]

It's hard to hate a company that produced such classics as the MK 5 and the 109/156BA.

 

[Jayfarmlaw]

We have two sets of MK25evo/s600 and I have a Glide X bcd. Good equipment all bought used but in like new condition for less than half the cost of new. The regs definately breathe better than our entry level Hog/Edge regs. I also have 2 Air 2's on my wings that I actually like as a third airsource.

I can't say that they are superior to all other brands, but definately work for us.

Jay

 

[CavernFrog]

Some of you are saying that “all regulators are the same” and others are distinctly saying that “some regulators breathe better”.

There was some test out there that selected ScubaPro MK25 as the easiest breathing regulator. If that is true I might spend the extra $$ for it.

 

[rhwestfall]

It's hard to hate a company that produced such classics as the MK 5 and the 109/156BA.

except they killed both......

 

[rhwestfall]

Some of you are saying that “all regulators are the same” and others are distinctly saying that “some regulators breathe better”.

There was some test out there that selected ScubaPro MK25 as the easiest breathing regulator. If that is true I might spend the extra $$ for it.

a machine, and likely not noticeable by a human. Beyond that is the "feel" which is subjective, thus no standard other than our own (ie: Poseidon - some like, others don't).

 

[tbone1004]

There is no spectrum. Deep6 regs are ok and are based on a proven design that has also been used by HOG, Apeks, Dive Rite, and others. Many people have stated that all four regs are actually manufactured by Well Marine Diver. The Deep6 version has some nice upgrades, some for longevity of internal parts, and some like a metal DIN handwheel rather than the plasticky one that just makes it a tad easier to use. Deep6 has a unique service model. If it works for you, great.

I'm unsure who has said that, but they are incorrect. Dive Rite XT's are mostly made by WMD. Apeks does EVERYTHING in house just north of Manchester England. HOG and Deep6 come from ODS. Deep6 DGX is basically a clone of the Apeks DST, as were the older ODS Dive Rites and you can get those from a slew of other brands in what is called "stenciling". Deep6 Signature is a mostly new design that doesn't look anything like the Apeks models and is a step change from the HOG D3.

@CavernFrog The MK25 is a first stage. While it is a good one, the claims made on it are hilarious because it can flow more air than the valve. As can most all modern first stages. Most of the regulator tests that you see are based on testing that will make Navy SEALs damn near pass out so you can't look at the extreme limits of the testing. The MK25 however has not passed Norsok testing, which Apeks and Poseidon have. That is that extreme level of testing under the ice. Anything that passes CE ratings is going to breathe perfectly fine.
While you're at Edd's testing lights, ask him to let you take a bunch of regulators out for a spin. He has HOG D3, Dive Rite XT, Deep6 Signature, Hollis, and I'm sure some others

 

[scubadada]

Some of you are saying that “all regulators are the same” and others are distinctly saying that “some regulators breathe better”.

There was some test out there that selected ScubaPro MK25 as the easiest breathing regulator. If that is true I might spend the extra $$ for it.

a machine, and likely not noticeable by a human. Beyond that is the "feel" which is subjective, thus no standard other than our own (ie: Poseidon - some like, others don't).

There was an extensive discussion of regulator testing using the ANSTI breathing simulator in a previous thread Latest ScubaLabs reg test - huh? The thread touches on the performance of the Deep 6 Signature regulator in the 2017 testing 20 Scuba Diving Regulators Reviewed By ScubaLab The Deep 6 performance was also discussed in an additional thread on SB Deep 6 Signature Regulator Review

 

[kelemvor]

Some of you are saying that “all regulators are the same” and others are distinctly saying that “some regulators breathe better”.

There was some test out there that selected ScubaPro MK25 as the easiest breathing regulator. If that is true I might spend the extra $$ for it.

I think it's mostly the folks with the skills to tune a regulator themselves who chant about all regulators being the same. Maybe they can be, I'm certainly not qualified to dispute them. How do we of the unwashed masses know if a regulator is different because of tuning or design? Is the distinction important?

I do know that my scubapro mk25/s600 breathes about the same as the Aqualung Legend that my LDS provided me for OW class years ago. I also know that my scubapro mk2/r295 breathes significantly worse than the other two - especially when I'm inverted in the water. Maybe the mk2/r295 needs tuning. It's been serviced by the same guy that services my mk25/s600 so I can't explain the difference other than by saying that "mk25/s600 is better".

 

[kmarks]

You've already fallen for the essential con. Aside from exceptional use cases and minor differences that most people wouldn't even notice, all modern regulator sets perform equally well in all conditions provided that they are properly serviced and tuned.

There are differences in internal design, DIN vs. Yoke, hose routing, number of ports, turret or not, ease of service, availability of service, how well the exhaust is directed away, whether there's an external adjustment knob and venturi lever, whether the 2nd stage is reversible, ease of 2nd stage service underwater (to deal with a stick or something wedged in the purge button or diaphragm, etc.



There is no spectrum. Deep6 regs are ok and are based on a proven design that has also been used by HOG, Apeks, Dive Rite, and others. Many people have stated that all four regs are actually manufactured by Well Marine Diver. The Deep6 version has some nice upgrades, some for longevity of internal parts, and some like a metal DIN handwheel rather than the plasticky one that just makes it a tad easier to use. Deep6 has a unique service model. If it works for you, great.

I don't even understand what you are saying here. What con have I fallen for? The "con" that there are differences in their gear? In one breath you say that everything is identical and there are big differences.

Maybe I used the term "performance" a little too broadly (and tongue in cheek), but there is definitely a big difference between a balanced and an unbalanced reg, and an environmentally sealed reg is probably a much better choice in the Great Lakes than an unsealed reg. The difference between everything titanium, some things titanium, and nothing titanium probably isn't noticeable to somebody like me, but there is certainly a difference.

And the spectrum I was referring to was across Scubapro's gear. In their current lineup, they have six first stages and ten second stages sold in 13 different configurations. Between the MK2EVO/R195 and the MK25T EVO/S-620 X-Ti there is a $1,819 difference. Is that Ti reg overpriced? There is almost certainly a diminishing return as you go from cheapest to most expensive. But there is a difference between the two at the "bottom" of the lineup: the $381 Mk2 Evo/r195 and the $465 Mk11/C370 - at a brief glance, the Mk2 is a piston and the Mk11 is a diaphragm, and the C370 is balanced and the R195 is not. I've rented enough gear to know that there is a big difference in how a balanced reg feels compared to an unbalanced and I prefer balanced. My question was where he feels the Deep6 regs fit in compared to the SP lineup. A Deep6 Signature first and second starts at $375. That's cheaper than the cheapest SP. It's an environmentally sealed, balanced diaphragm with more ports (both HP and LP), so, on paper, it certainly looks better than the Mk2/r195 for $6 less. But to somebody who has used a lot of gear, does it feel better than the Mk11/C370? or the Mk17/G260? Basically, how much more value do you get by buying the Deep 6 compared to a comparable (performance/build/ports/etc) reg from Scubapro? Or put more bluntly, just how overpriced is Scubapro?

 

[tbone1004]

@kelemvor case design and venturi boost are going to make the most difference in "feel" of the regulators. The R295 is likely tuned way back from the S600 because it will freeflow quite easily without the ability to change the venturi or cracking effort. Factory specs are different for cracking pressure with both of them. You can probably get the R295 to get real close to the other two, but it is a balance between work of breathing and how easily it will freeflow.

@kmarks is there that big of a difference in balanced and unbalanced? The vast majority of my second stages are all unbalanced, including my scubapros that I chose not to upgrade to balanced. The WoB difference doesn't change all that much if the first stage is properly balanced. As long as one of the stages is balanced, then there really isn't a need for the other to be. The second stage being balanced compensates for fluctuations in the first stage being unbalanced, but if the first stage maintains constant IP then it doesn't matter. Can you tell on an ANSTI machine? usually because they push the regulators to the extreme, but a human can't push them that far. If you put a MK2 and a R195 together? yeah it'll change as a function of tank pressure, but as long as one is balanced, the other doesn't really matter. Most higher end second stages are balanced because the only difference is the poppet and spring so there's no real benefit in making one balanced and one non. I.e. the 109 became the 156 "balanced adjustable" which has continued to evolve into the G260. They use the same poppets, same parts kits, etc. just different cases. You can make a G260 "unbalanced" just as you can make a 109 "balanced" but the regulator is the same, just a small piece of plastic, a couple o-rings, and a rubber seat that changes it over.

You can take a Deep6 Signature against any regulator on the market *aside from Poseidon and Kraken which are completely different designs* and you'd be hard pressed to tell any difference in breathing. The Deep6 is being used on some pretty extreme cave dives and has been taken quite deep by many very well respected divers and instructors. To compare the Deep6 against the Scubapro, it's a MK25/S600 or MK25/G260 against the Deep6. $750 from Scubapro, $375 from Deep6. Don't buy Scubapro. A Scubapro mk2/R195 at the same price as Deep6. You couldn't pay me to dive that Scubapro setup if I had the option of the Deep6.