Anti-Fogging Treatments for New Masks. (a comparison of techniques)

[stuartv]

Ladies and germs, I bear tidings of woe.

I purchased this mask in January, as part of my mission to try 17 thouzillion masks, until I find The One Mask That Does Not Leak (on me). I have done maybe 1/2 a dozen dives with it. Back when I first got it, I did the usual scrubbing treatment, and possibly even burned the inside of the lens. I don't remember. A bit over a week ago, I ran it through the dishwasher along with 4 other masks and then put all 5 in ammonia last Sunday. I just took them out (i.e. after 7 days).

Out of the 5 masks, 4 have no signs of damage. One is the DGX Ultraview with their Anti-Reflective Coating. That is a very obviously visible coating and it appears to be unaffected by the ammonia soak.

But, when I took this one out, I saw pieces of something in the bottom of the container of ammonia. It turns out the bezel on the outside of the mask broke into multiple pieces and became detached.

I am going to reach out to the manufacturer and see what they have to say about it. I reckon it could be anything from "send it back and we'll send you a new one" to "you did what?!?! Sorry, fella. You ruined your mask. That's not on us."

Until I get a response from them, I'm not going to post what brand or model it is, and if you recognize it, I would prefer that you not say, either. I'll post more details after the manufacturer has a chance to respond.

I wanted to post now, in advance of getting a response from the manufacturer, as a caution to those of you who may be soaking or planning to soak your own masks. I have soaked the following masks (for a week, except where noted) with no apparent ill effects:

DGX UltraView
DGX UltraView ARC
Atomic Aquatics Subframe ARC (I think I only soaked this one for 2 days)
Deep6 Gear Signature Black
Mako Minimus
Hollis M-1

This is a picture with one piece put back in place, just so you can have an idea of what it is supposed to look like.

View attachment 581554

And here is what it actually looks like now. Yes, all those pieces broke off spontaneously, while soaking. The two black slivers are actually pieces of the mask frame itself, one from each side of the mask, right up against a portion of the bezel that came off. All the other pieces are from the bezel itself. I was hoping that I could just get a new bezel to glue in and be good as new, but those 2 black slivers mean even a new bezel would not put it back to 100% like new.

View attachment 581555

Okay, I got a reply back from the manufacturer of this mask. It took them a little bit because, apparently, they were putting their heads together and discussing the issue in detail. I am very pleased with their response and have to say that the rumors of what a class act they are and the top-notch customer service they provide seem to be accurate.

The mask is a Dive Rite ES170. The response from Dive Rite said, in part:

You brought up a good point that we do not have our recommended prep techniques listed on the website, we will work to add those ASAP.

We do not recommend burning to people because there are a lot of chances for error. People have burned the plastic pieces of the mask and there is a chance to discolor the lenses.

Dive Rite still recommends using a mild abrasive such as traditional tooth paste or soft scrub (without bleach) to remove the mold release agents. There are also several tested mask prep products that we recommend such as FOGKICKER Scrub or the 500 PSI Mask Scrub.

Because we did not have this info listed on our website, and that you have provided us with some hands on research, I am happy to send you a replacement mask under warranty.

There you go. I think they are handling this in the best possible way. I expect that they will update their information, to let people know going forward that an ammonia bath is not suitable for this mask. And I suspect future claims, should there be any, will be met with "we told you ammonia is bad for this." Which is how it should be, in my opinion (given how common ammonia-based glass cleaners are).

As I said before, I have a number of pieces of Dive Rite gear and I have always been very happy with them all. I never really had a need for customer service before, until this past month. My Nomad XT wing on my CCR was worn out and had gotten little pinhole leaks all over the bladder. They replaced the bladder for me at a very reasonable cost, and turned it around very quickly. And now they are covering this mask at no charge, when they really could have said "you abused it. It's on you." And I would not have even been mad about it!

Thank you, Dive Rite!

 

[lexvil]

Okay, I got a reply back from the manufacturer of this mask. It took them a little bit because, apparently, they were putting their heads together and discussing the issue in detail. I am very pleased with their response and have to say that the rumors of what a class act they are and the top-notch customer service they provide seem to be accurate.

The mask is a Dive Rite ES170. The response from Dive Rite said, in part:



There you go. I think they are handling this in the best possible way. I expect that they will update their information, to let people know going forward that an ammonia bath is not suitable for this mask. And I suspect future claims, should there be any, will be met with "we told you ammonia is bad for this." Which is how it should be, in my opinion (given how common ammonia-based glass cleaners are).

As I said before, I have a number of pieces of Dive Rite gear and I have always been very happy with them all. I never really had a need for customer service before, until this past month. My Nomad XT wing on my CCR was worn out and had gotten little pinhole leaks all over the bladder. They replaced the bladder for me at a very reasonable cost, and turned it around very quickly. And now they are covering this mask at no charge, when they really could have said "you abused it. It's on you." And I would not have even been mad about it!

Thank you, Dive Rite!

I can only imagine the discussion, “HE DID WHAT?” SOAKED it WHAT? I now understand the Clorox warning to not drink it

 

[AustinV]

I have had nothing but success with Dive Rite products and customer service, have several products from them, including 3 reg sets that I send to them for service as I have heard of issues with a local shop (only specifically on DR regs? not sure why?). So I have nothing bad to say about Dive Rite at all and constantly advocate their products.

That being said even I am surprised that when they received an email saying "I put your mask in a chemical bath for a week and it fell apart", they replaced it when most manufacturers would have instantly pointed out the error and denied any type of claim. If they actually put their heads into it and tried to research it (meaning A) WHY it happened and B) WHY you were attempting that in the first place) it could lead to a new way of treating masks at the factory. Good on them.

 

[lowviz]

These mask failures are all on removable-lens masks.

It looks like two types of plastics do not do well in ammonium hydroxide: ABS and polycarbonate. This information is easily found in chemical compatibility charts. Unfortunately, both of these are rigid, commonly used structural polymers and their use in a removable-lens mask assembly would not be surprising.

It appears that frameless (fixed-lens) masks do not need these structural plastics to hold the lenses in place so they don't have a problem with ammonium hydroxide.

 

[-JD-]

These mask failures are all on removable-lens masks.

It looks like two types of plastics do not do well in ammonium hydroxide: ABS and polycarbonate. This information is easily found in chemical compatibility charts. Unfortunately, both of these are rigid, commonly used structural polymers and their use in a removable-lens mask assembly would not be surprising.

It appears that frameless (fixed-lens) masks do not need these structural plastics to hold the lenses in place so they don't have a problem with ammonium hydroxide.

Emphasis mine.

The skirts MAY not (@stuartv 's experience with the smudging decomposition of the skirt still to be pursued ...)[EDIT my mis-rememberance] but any buckle hardware may still be at risk. Is even concentrated vapor (closed box) going to be a risk to ABS/PC/? plastics?

 

[Couv]

I'm glad that the locking inserts don't seem to have been damaged by the ammonia!

It was part of the test, since I have another set

I haven't done the following, however I think it would make a decent repair if needed.

 

[lowviz]

Is even concentrated vapor (closed box) going to be a risk to ABS/PC/? plastics?

I don't know.

However, your concern is also why I'm beginning to favor @lexvil's approach. (just a bit of ammonia on the inside of the mask...

New product suggestion that nobody can patent as it just became public knowledge: Alkaline 'lens-seasoning' cream that slowly releases ammonia.

Lots of ways to do this, the manufacturers can take it from here...

 

[Umuntu]

I don't know.

However, your concern is also why I'm beginning to favor @lexvil's approach. (just a bit of ammonia on the inside of the mask...

New product suggestion that nobody can patent as it just became public knowledge: Alkaline 'lens-seasoning' cream that slowly releases ammonia.

Lots of ways to do this, the manufacturers can take it from here...

Urea is practically pH neutral ... just saying ...

 

[johndiver999]

I have concerns about impacts to buckles, but if you carefully filled the mask with ammonia, then placed the mask in a shallow tray of water and left it uncovered, the buckles should not get direct exposure and the exterior would be protected from dribbles by the external water bath. Doesn't seem like a "main stream" solution to me.. People have reservations about burning lenses, this unfortunately seems to have even more problems.

 

[lowviz]

Urea is practically pH neutral ... just saying ...

Yes, but it is a good source of ammonia. You just have to degrade it properly over time. There are other alkalis that may also be appropriate.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00103624.2011.566957

I have concerns about impacts to buckles, ...//... Doesn't seem like a "main stream" solution to me.. People have reservations about burning lenses, this unfortunately seems to have even more problems.

Yes, but the whole idea of this thread was to investigate the problem. I believe that an ammonia treatment is just another way to get a mask to behave. I have no interest in pushing this treatment onto anyone, it is just another valid option found by a concerted group effort. It certainly needs some 'tweaking' to avoid the issues that have come to light.

I might play with the 'extended ammonia release cream' thing a bit...