Another Eagles Nest fatality

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

The plan was a cause -- execution of the plan was a cause. There are other causes I am sure.

Fatalities are generally due to a chain of events - the plan was the first weak link, thus a cause.

 

[tbone1004]

the only cause here is that if they hadn't planned the dive, he wouldn't have gone on the dive, and wouldn't have died. While you can argue that because he wasn't qualified he shouldn't have done the dive, and therefor wouldn't have died in this cave on this day, then yeah, it's a cause. If he had done that dive in OW and the outcome was the same, which is what we have to assume based on the information we have been provided, he was diving within his limits and something happened.

I won't disagree with you on the plan being stupid, but assuming what we have been told is true, then you can't honestly believe that full cave training would have prevented this accident

 

[Steve_C]

Maybe I missed it, but of the trained and less well trained folks, which one died?

 

[Daedalus]

the only cause here is that if they hadn't planned the dive, he wouldn't have gone on the dive, and wouldn't have died. While you can argue that because he wasn't qualified he shouldn't have done the dive, and therefor wouldn't have died in this cave on this day, then yeah, it's a cause. If he had done that dive in OW and the outcome was the same, which is what we have to assume based on the information we have been provided, he was diving within his limits and something happened.

I won't disagree with you on the plan being stupid, but assuming what we have been told is true, then you can't honestly believe that full cave training would have prevented this accident

There may not enough information to conclude what the root cause of the accident was at this point, but bringing a cavern diver to Eagle's Nest suggests to me that there was definitely a "this doesn't apply to ME" attitude somewhere in the mix with this group. Maybe it carried over into dive execution, rebreather maintenance, and/or set-up.

If the dive was done in open water and the accident happened there noone would be talking about losing the ocean as a dive site. Cave divers worked very hard to open the site and work hard to keep it open. People who haven't earned the right to be there are threatening the status quo at Eagle's Nest which is very favorable to cave divers at present, with an attendance to free rider problem. I hope the access policy doesn't change, but if fatalities keep occurring it's going to change and the losers will be cave divers. The OW/tech instructors will go back to Hudson Grotto or Blue Grotto or the ocean or the other places they never should have left in the first place.

Moreover, accidents at Eagle's Nest can lead to closures of other sites or make access more difficult with private landowners spooked about liability. How can one negotiate access with a straight face and tell a landowner that all cave divers are meticulous rule followers with sound judgment when trained cave divers flagrantly violate rules and best diving practices with abandon? People blame a degradation of training, but I think it's equally a degradation of culture and the rise of a shockingly cavalier attitude towards safety procedures and rule following. I believe the employment of much more capable and complex diving equipment than is needed to accomplish the dives the diver is experienced for (rebreathers, DPVs, better lights, sidemount) is contributing to this.

 

[oya]

How can not being trained for caves be a contributing factor to an accident that may (or may not, granted) have been in open water?

Added stress.

 

[tbone1004]

@oya touche on that, however aside from depth, this would have qualified as a cavern, so assuming the cavern training was adequate, then it shouldn't have been a big factor. May have been, but they got him bailed out and it still went sideways after being on OC, so I'm tending to lean against the stress of being in a cave. Could be wrong, hope to not be proved wrong, but more info about his diving experience and history would have to be published to make that conclusion. I.e. if he was an experience NJ wreck or Great Lakes diver? I'm not going to buy stress...

@Daedalus I'm well aware of how this can end poorly from a land rights standpoint, but that has no bearing on whether his certification level was a significant factor leading to this incident. If he was full cave, all the media would say is that this is the third diver death in less than 3 months at that cave and that it should be closed because f*cking idiots like the father/son incidents family are trying to get the site closed because they can't accept that their family members were morons and killed themselves, not the cave. Look back to the incident the CDS just finished fighting where someone trespassed on the property, died, and his family sued when he wasn't qualified. Certification level isn't going to do anything about whether they try to close it or not. Best case is nothing changes because this guys family isn't a bunch of selfish, ignorant, litigious morons. Least worst case we end up with something like Peaock or JB where you have to display certification and sign a waiver, not the end of the world. Worst case they close it again, but I think there is enough out there to keep it from happening.

 

[Daedalus]

@Daedalus I'm well aware of how this can end poorly from a land rights standpoint, but that has no bearing on whether his certification level was a significant factor leading to this incident. If he was full cave, all the media would say is that this is the third diver death in less than 3 months at that cave and that it should be closed because f*cking idiots like the father/son incidents family are trying to get the site closed because they can't accept that their family members were morons and killed themselves, not the cave. Look back to the incident the CDS just finished fighting where someone trespassed on the property, died, and his family sued when he wasn't qualified. Certification level isn't going to do anything about whether they try to close it or not. Best case is nothing changes because this guys family isn't a bunch of selfish, ignorant, litigious morons. Least worst case we end up with something like Peaock or JB where you have to display certification and sign a waiver, not the end of the world. Worst case they close it again, but I think there is enough out there to keep it from happening.

I think you're missing my point which is that cave divers who take a cavern diver to Eagle's Nest and a cavern diver that agrees to go along has made a prima facie showing of an unsafe attitude. Divers with an unsafe attitude should get out of diving and pick up golf, or take it to the ocean where noone cares.

 

[tbone1004]

I think you're missing my point which is that cave divers who take a cavern diver to Eagle's Nest and a cavern diver that agrees to go along has made a prima facie showing of an unsafe attitude. Divers with an unsafe attitude should get out of diving and pick up golf, or take it to the ocean where noone cares.

that I agree with, sorry did not get your original intention on that post

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

The fact that these divers, as a group and individually were willing to plan a cave dive to 200 feet of depth accompanied by a diver who was not cave trained also speaks volumes about their attitude.

@tbone1004 - did you miss my statement also?

 

[tbone1004]

@tbone1004 - did you miss my statement also?

nope, but you seem to be implying that if the diver was full cave trained, it would have changed the outcome of this dive. We have absolutely nothing that could lead you to that conclusion. EN is deemed a cave because of depth and because of the risk of it getting blown out. What has been described has nothing to do with any navigational issues. Now you can start drying weird lines between them making stupid decisions about dive planning, which could also lead to gear maintenance issues, or whatever, but if they had been full cave trained, it wouldn't have changed the gear issues. Hell look back at the Ginnie incident this time last year, both fully trained divers, made a dumb decision and it killed one of them.

I'm sorry, but if you really think training would have changed anything, you must have an ulterior motive somewhere, or you know something I don't. What is leading you to think that if they were full cave trained, the outcome would have been different?