An Attempt at Understanding DIR

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

The bottom line is:

You either like or you don't.

Nobody here is going to change your mind anyway so why even bother? The OP had 1 bad encounter a long time ago in some un-named location (can't help someone who hides behind a curtain) and is forever scarred. A more than decent attempt to bridge the gap has proved fruitless.


Let's see, as the OP I've made a couple posts in this thread about things I've learned in this discussion. I've engaged in a number of PM conversations where even more things were clarified. I've been given direction to a few other more current, relevant texts that I'm currently reading, and I've even been in contact via PM with someone from GUE.

So yeah, it's been totally fruitless. Well, except for the people who insist on sniping and disparaging the OP without having noticed that the OP has actually been listening and learning for 24 pages.
 
Kingpatzer, I'm glad you got something out of this thread, and as I said before, I'm glad you started it.

The DIR system isn't perfect -- and what's more, the folks who run GUE know that, and are constantly exploring and revising and rethinking the system and how divers are taught. But it's a pretty darned good system, both intrinsically and in contrast with other training. It has sure made diving more fun for me, and I suspect the work I've put into it has made diving safer for me, too. And that's the bottom line for recreational diving: having fun safely.
 
Characterize away, you seem to be a pretty good judge and are not far off base. I do find your terminology a bit confusing, in as much as I'd describe my favored approach as the holistic one, stressing the idea that, "the sum is greater then the parts," and the GUE/UTD approach as the one that tends toward the mechanical, the equipment based, and the inflexible. But that's neither here nor there.

You're still seeing mostly Internet-DIR, which tends to be Fundamentals-focused, Equipment-focused, and Rote-Process-focused. At tech/cave levels you need to start to learn how to think underwater.
 
Kingpatzer, I'm glad you got something out of this thread, and as I said before, I'm glad you started it.

The DIR system isn't perfect -- and what's more, the folks who run GUE know that, and are constantly exploring and revising and rethinking the system and how divers are taught. But it's a pretty darned good system, both intrinsically and in contrast with other training. It has sure made diving more fun for me, and I suspect the work I've put into it has made diving safer for me, too. And that's the bottom line for recreational diving: having fun safely.

As always, eloquently written! Thank you for setting such a positive example.
 
You're still seeing mostly Internet-DIR, which tends to be Fundamentals-focused, Equipment-focused, and Rote-Process-focused. At tech/cave levels you need to start to learn how to think underwater.

I agree with Lamont. Internet DIR is definitely centered around fundamental skills, equipment and protocols, as this is the first introduction to the system.

However, the goal of DIR is definitely not to be "mechnical, equipment based, and inflexible." The goal is as you described in a previous post:

Thalassamania:
That said, on particularly difficult and hazardous undertakings I tend to avail myself of both approaches, selecting personnel with the more Zen like outlook, but rigidly standardizing the procedures, drills, and equipment selection, placement, and use. I like to have everything possible going for me when it might come down to the last small fraction of a percent that makes the difference.

The UTD video blog on Protocols are a Stop Gap discusses this issue in more detail.

In the tech/cave classes, you are consistently pushed to think underwater. Of course, if the base skills aren't good, it'll be hard elevate out of the details, see the larger picture, and make the best decisions.
 
Sloth, before you believe there is a "proper" freediving technique, you may want to discuss the subject with Dr. Neal Pollock at DAN.

....freediving is unsafe at any speed!

No where did I talk about actual freediving. Static apena and horizontal breath hold swimming are completely different animals then freediving for depth. I agree that there are dangers in freediving. freedivers blowing off lung squeeze as if it is just part of freediving is amazing. Coughing blood just doesn't seem all that normal to me. I dont freedive, I just use PFIs breath hold techniques to work on static apnea and horizontal breath hold swimming.

I was amazed though at PFIs safety protocols and buddy aspects for freediving. They have done a lot to making aggressive free diving safer and they have had a huge impact here in Hawaiis free diving population. Lots of free diving spear fishermen here still go out and do solo freediving which is so insanely dangerous. Can PFI do anything to change the inherent dangers of freediving? No more then GUE can guarantee you that you wont get bent. But like GUE they have gone a long way to reducing the risks.
 
Tom

Your comments to Thalassamania on this thread are insulting, baiting, and against the TOS. You must have no knowledge of who he is and what he has done in the scuba/scientific community...

-----------

I have high respect for what Phil has done in the scuba/scientific community ... but I often wonder why he posts in the DIR forum ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
No where did I talk about actual freediving. Static apena and horizontal breath hold swimming are completely different animals then freediving for depth. I agree that there are dangers in freediving. freedivers blowing off lung squeeze as if it is just part of freediving is amazing. Coughing blood just doesn't seem all that normal to me. I dont freedive, I just use PFIs breath hold techniques to work on static apnea and horizontal breath hold swimming.

I was amazed though at PFIs safety protocols and buddy aspects for freediving. They have done a lot to making aggressive free diving safer and they have had a huge impact here in Hawaiis free diving population. Lots of free diving spear fishermen here still go out and do solo freediving which is so insanely dangerous. Can PFI do anything to change the inherent dangers of freediving? No more then GUE can guarantee you that you wont get bent. But like GUE they have gone a long way to reducing the risks.

Static apnea and dynamic apnea are forms of freediving, so I just used the term freediving for any breath hold activity. Divers die doing both static and dynamic apnea.

My intention is not to bash PFD. Freediving, in any form, is a risky endeavor. I don't admire PFD's methods any more or any less than I'd admire a well-planned deep air scuba dive. We have far better ways of placing a human being at 200, 300, even 1000 feet. GUE's methods are one of those. Comex uses other methods. Freediving and deep air diving are stunts in comparison to truly "safer" methods of diving. Any stunt can be made safer so we really can't compare freediving and freediving skills to philosophies of diving that strive to reduce any risk to the diver given the tools available within sane parameters of cost, affordability, and technology.

If I were going to do a truly deep air dive, I'd start listening to Tom Mount's thoughts about Asian meditation and the impact of martial arts on diving and then get training through Hal Watts and Gary Taylor, but I can't make any argument for the safety of deep air diving, just as I cannot make any argument for the safety of freediving.

It is an unnecessary risk done for one's own self-actualization just like skydiving for fun. If our goal is to take a human being to 13,500 feet and bring that person down safely, there are better methods than the parachute. Can learning to parachute save your life? Yes. If you need to jump from an aircraft or a balloon, the ability to properly perform a jump will be an asset to survival and safety, rather than just learning on the fly the first time. Being trained in breath hold techniques and freediving will add to the survivability of a scuba diver in an OOG situation.

What is often misunderstood about DIR is that it wasn't developed to make the diving industry safer. It was developed to accomplish a specific mission and as the practitioner's became more aware of the possibilities of the system within the organization and for the public, it took on a life of its own.

Andrew Georgitsis told me that the DIR-F class that he developed was at first rejected as a course and delegtated to a workshop. If the goal of GUE was to make diving safer, how could JJ or anyone else not have seen the value of DIR-F/GUE-F to the diving public right away? If that is the history of DIR-F, then the success of the workshop led to it being a course. As one of the best courses in the world for diver education, it has enjoyed enormous popularity and enriches many lives. However, DIR originally was intended for a different audience than the one attending and paying the bills. Whoever developed the ScubaPro Jet Fin probably had no intention of having it perform so well when doing the backward frog kick and helicopter turns. It was just supposed to be a good fin. It is. That's why it has been adopted by some of the best divers in the world. DIR is a good philosophy and it is enjoying similar success.

JJ never meant to take away personal freedom in diving. The minions tend to want to do that because they assume if you aren't DIR, haven't done GUE and don't wear properly configured gear that you are dangerous. I have seen the same thing from the PFD minions. Not every spearo off Hawaii diving alone is dangerous. DIR students and PFD students don't know what they don't know, but are often the fiurst to tell you what they do know, and many times they can't see the forest for the trees.

But, let's not digress off DIR scuba diving here too far. We can open another thread to debate freediving.

Jim Bowden, in Facing Darkness, remarks that a person shouldn't let those who want to tell you, "No," keep you from your goals.

Any group who wants to take away anyone's freedom, no matter how well-meaning, is dangerous. DIR, while a very safe tool underwater, can be a very dangerous tool if left unchecked. Those who admire freedom see this and that is where much of the rebellion comes into play. The attitude of zealotry is terrifying. JJ himself isn't a zealot because each day, as technology changes, he faces the questions regarding what changes, if any, to GUE and Halcyon should be made. The rebreathers that placed JJ and GI3 into the record books aren't the RB-80's that most GUE rebreather students learned to use. The man adapted a more philosophy compliant design.


I respect you for your interest in DIR and static apnea/dynamic apnea. Please don't view this as an attack.

Maybe one day, a GUE training committee member will make a terrific argument for higher swim test standards? I think this is where I really want to get back to you and Thal ...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

Back
Top Bottom