American fatality in Exumas, Bahamas

[AggieDiver]

Although it has been many years since I have done so, I used to peruse the annual DAN reports carefully and provide analysis on ScubaBoard, usually because people were so frequently misstating them.

It is extremely rare for a dive operation to be considered at fault in a dive fatality.The largest portion of dive fatalities are the result of health emergencies, principally cardiac related. Obesity has been associated with a large percentage of fatalities.

The rare cases for which an operation can be blamed can include things providing improper rental gear, a dive guide leading divers to inappropriate places and depths, a dive guide losing track of a diver who goes missing, bad gas (carbon monoxide), etc. These things happen, but not often at all.

It is very common in Scuba for people to assert that even those cases do not count, since a dive operation has no responsibility for your safety and your decisions during a dive. That is pretty much not true. In those threads, dive operation managers or owners sometimes step in and say that they absolutely expect their employees to be responsible for the divers. A few years ago a Florida operation was severely punished when they failed to perform an effective rescue of a diver struggling on the surface. A San Diego operator went out of business when its on-the-boat DM jumped into the water to help a struggling diver, and his wrong-headed efforts led to a drowning. These uncommon events usually make big news.

I guess it would all depend on what the divers were told in advance, whether there were other boats around who could be asked to go get them, whether they would be in danger simply floating at the surface while waiting for a pickup, etc. That is why I like the Reef Divers model of briefing divers about this type of situation and their underwater speaker system. They tell everybody before their first day of diving that if there is an emergency, they may be left at the site while taking somebody to shore in an emergency. They use their underwater speaker system to alert the divers to get away from the boat before they start it, and you are told to do your safety stop, then surface and gather around the mooring ball to wait for pickup. This works because they generally have multiple boats out at any given time, and they have a relatively short trip to the dock and can come back soon even if there are no other boats available. Having the mooring ball to gather around helps keep people from drifting off and getting lost.

I am sure in a more remote drift diving scenario that might not work quite as well, particularly if there were currents or waves taking them towards dangerous conditions and no other boats nearby available to pick them up. If not, all of the divers have a floatation device strapped to their back and shouldn't be in imminent danger just floating at the surface for a while.

 

[Kay Dee]

@sladerer

I would also put forth, that if the dive leader is too traumatized to talk about the incident (totally agree that is understandable), then they have no business being in the water leading another group of divers while traumatized the next day.

I agree that your suggestion of next day suspension of activities while conducting a safety review may be one way to go that seems appropriate,

While I think some of your expectations of explanations (from the dive shop in question) were more than required (by the shop) I fully agree with your above two points (although, again, the dive leader has no obligation to talk about the event, except to those involved / investigators). But neither should he be leading a group the next day if so traumatised, IMO.

 

[yle]

I asked several times while filling out my paperwork what happened and they remained tight lipped. they refused to take me diving despite my medical clearance because I always answer yes to 2-3 questions (HBP, high cholesterol sort of thing) but things usually instantly clear up when I present my current and recent physician note, but not today. ...

I then checked with the 3 other divers if they had been made aware so they could make an informed decision about their personal safety. They had not been told. Staff became angry that I was sharing information about the incident with the other guests, to the point where I was asked to leave.

I asked one of the managers to explain why it’s safe to dive if the cause of death is still unknown, to which there was no reply. .

You said they refused to take you diving because you had a Yes on "2-3 questions". Then you asked them why it's safe to dive.

Apparently they decided it wasn't safe for you to dive. Seems they were looking out for your safety. But it also seems you didn't like that decision, so you had to badger their other guests.

As Sladerer expressed above, I hope you find dive shops that can meet your standards so you can continue diving. You seem like the kind of person that is a real pain when you don't get things your way.

 

[SlugLife]

Here is a recap from my perspective...

...As I mentioned in another forum - while there was one fatality, it's fair to say their were multiple "victims", as every diver on that boat and all crew were impacted, if not traumatized, by the events.

Thank you for sharing.

I'm not getting any clear reads on the likely cause(s). If this is all the information we receive, I'd place odds on being either a "medical incident" or diving beyond one's limits. The dive-guide (I hate the word "dive master") seems to have done their job, given this was a recreational-dive and not a dive-class.

Questions for dive instructors and/or diver’s who work at “certified” dive shops (PADI, SSI…any): Are dive shops required to practice life saving first aid tactics monthly, quarterly or annually? If so, are they supposed to keep logs/records of such drills? Can Diver’s request to view?

This unfortunate experience has me questioning the best way to inquire with future dive shops about -their- safety skills, safety drills and first aid equipment practice. Dive shops make diver’s fill out health and ability questionnaires. But they (so far) have never offered me to check their abilities and safety practices.

The #1 person responsible for your safety is always you.

There are two scenarios where I might place increased liability on the dive-shop:

• During a dive-class. Specifically, dive courses are generally intended to bring students to a new level, and therefore should be carefully instructed on safety and closely monitored, given they may be approaching or beyond their limits at any time. Students are often trusting the instructor to keep them safe.
• Pushing people to be unsafe. For example, leading people into a cave, who are not cave-certified, deviating from the dive-plan, or leading a group to 130ft, without verifying all have advanced-open-water certifications or adequate experience.

In this particular scenario, the "instructor" was not instructing, and instead acting as a dive-guide. IMO, a dive-guide isn't really responsible for baby-sitting, beyond ensuring the group doesn't get lost, remains together, and has appropriate training/experience for the planned dive. I would also strongly prefer any dive-guide has rescue training, but that training doesn't mean you can save everyone under every circumstance.

I might blame this guide or shop more, if additional information comes out. For for me personally, I never dive anywhere I don't feel safe diving solo.

 

[boulderjohn]

IMO, a dive-guide isn't really responsible for baby-sitting, beyond ensuring the group doesn't get lost, remains together, and has appropriate training/experience for the planned dive.

As I said about this in another post, that may be your opinion, but in general, dive operations, the law, and others will often disagree. A dive guide who assumes he or she will not be held responsible for a dive accident is being very foolish.

If I am just another diver on a dive, and I say something like, "I'm an instructor. Just stay close to me," then I can be held responsible because I have given the impression that the diver can rely on me and will dive with that expectation that I will lend a hand. A dive guide is beyond that in liability.

A dive guide who announces to the group that he has no responsibility for their safety, so don't come to him for help will probably be unemployed after that dive. In past ScubaBoard threads on this topics, dive operators have posted that they absolutely expect their dive guides to be responsible for the safety of the divers.

 

[SlugLife]

As I said about this in another post, that may be your opinion, but in general, dive operations, the law, and others will often disagree. A dive guide who assumes he or she will not be held responsible for a dive accident is being very foolish.

If I am just another diver on a dive, and I say something like, "I'm an instructor. Just stay close to me," then I can be held responsible because I have given the impression that the diver can rely on me and will dive with that expectation that I will lend a hand. A dive guide is beyond that in liability.

A dive guide who announces to the group that he has no responsibility for their safety, so don't come to him for help will probably be unemployed after that dive. In past ScubaBoard threads on this topics, dive operators have posted that they absolutely expect their dive guides to be responsible for the safety of the divers.

I agree with the majority of what your wrote.

The one thing I will say, is that if as a diver, you need to act as if you are 100.0% responsible for your own safety at all times. Because it doesn't matter who you can blame, if you're dead, you're dead.

 

[Laura Howard]

@sladerer - Again I will say: I am so ever thankful to have been diving with you that day. You exhibited truly heroic actions with clear, concise decisions and actions that gave the decedent the best chances of survival. Unfortunately all of the effort didn’t secure the desired outcome for reasons beyond anyone’s control.

Questions for dive instructors and/or diver’s who work at “certified” dive shops (PADI, SSI…any): Are dive shops required to practice life saving first aid tactics monthly, quarterly or annually? If so, are they supposed to keep logs/records of such drills? Can Diver’s request to view?

This unfortunate experience has me questioning the best way to inquire with future dive shops about -their- safety skills, safety drills and first aid equipment practice. Dive shops make diver’s fill out health and ability questionnaires. But they (so far) have never offered me to check their abilities and safety practices.

Hello. Victim's wife here. I appreciate your post on what you observed. As the comments here are really mostly opinions they aren't leading me to the actual CAUSE. But what you've written does have some things that are more than I knew.

So that I'm not discussing in public what happened there (at least for the moment) if anyone was there and especially the MD that was there wouldn't mind reaching out to me so I can talk with them? Oh gosh I would so appreciate that. I've asked and no one will help me with that. I just googled and found this forum. I have to ask.

If you're willing please originate a direct message and maybe we can connect that way.

Thank you in advance.
Laura

 

[5cubaN00b]

Hello. Victim's wife here. I appreciate your post on what you observed. As the comments here are really mostly opinions they aren't leading me to the actual CAUSE. But what you've written does have some things that are more than I knew.

So that I'm not discussing in public what happened there (at least for the moment) if anyone was there and especially the MD that was there wouldn't mind reaching out to me so I can talk with them? Oh gosh I would so appreciate that. I've asked and no one will help me with that. I just googled and found this forum. I have to ask.

If you're willing please originate a direct message and maybe we can connect that way.

Thank you in advance.
Laura

Hi Laura. I was on the dive with your husband. I tried to send you a PM but I am being blocked. I will try to get some info to you...

 

[Alaskan Scuba Dude]

When I realize the reason of death was still unknown and an investigation was still open, I realized how naive my initial approach to hearing about this whole incident was, I actually became glad that I wasn’t diving. I then checked with the 3 other divers if they had been made aware so they could make an informed decision about their personal safety. They had not been told. Staff became angry that I was sharing information about the incident with the other guests, to the point where I was asked to leave.

You acted appropriately as any other concerned individual. A simple: it's currently under investigation by relevant authorities and under PADI rules we cannot participate in any discussion on the matter, and to reassure you their equipment and standards are above board. For them to ask you to leave is an indication they don't care about anything other than themselves. I would write a Google review on their misbehavior.

 

[DandyDon]

Hi Laura. I was on the dive with your husband. I tried to send you a PM but I am being blocked. I will try to get some info to you...

I had no problem sending her a test message. Can you message others? Are you clear on how to message here?