American fatality in Exumas, Bahamas

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@sladerer

I would also put forth, that if the dive leader is too traumatized to talk about the incident (totally agree that is understandable), then they have no business being in the water leading another group of divers while traumatized the next day.

I agree that your suggestion of next day suspension of activities while conducting a safety review may be one way to go that seems appropriate,
While I think some of your expectations of explanations (from the dive shop in question) were more than required (by the shop) I fully agree with your above two points (although, again, the dive leader has no obligation to talk about the event, except to those involved / investigators). But neither should he be leading a group the next day if so traumatised, IMO.
 
I asked several times while filling out my paperwork what happened and they remained tight lipped. they refused to take me diving despite my medical clearance because I always answer yes to 2-3 questions (HBP, high cholesterol sort of thing) but things usually instantly clear up when I present my current and recent physician note, but not today. ...

I then checked with the 3 other divers if they had been made aware so they could make an informed decision about their personal safety. They had not been told. Staff became angry that I was sharing information about the incident with the other guests, to the point where I was asked to leave.

I asked one of the managers to explain why it’s safe to dive if the cause of death is still unknown, to which there was no reply. .
You said they refused to take you diving because you had a Yes on "2-3 questions". Then you asked them why it's safe to dive.

Apparently they decided it wasn't safe for you to dive. Seems they were looking out for your safety. But it also seems you didn't like that decision, so you had to badger their other guests.

As Sladerer expressed above, I hope you find dive shops that can meet your standards so you can continue diving. You seem like the kind of person that is a real pain when you don't get things your way.
 
Here is a recap from my perspective...

...As I mentioned in another forum - while there was one fatality, it's fair to say their were multiple "victims", as every diver on that boat and all crew were impacted, if not traumatized, by the events.
Thank you for sharing.

I'm not getting any clear reads on the likely cause(s). If this is all the information we receive, I'd place odds on being either a "medical incident" or diving beyond one's limits. The dive-guide (I hate the word "dive master") seems to have done their job, given this was a recreational-dive and not a dive-class.

Questions for dive instructors and/or diver’s who work at “certified” dive shops (PADI, SSI…any): Are dive shops required to practice life saving first aid tactics monthly, quarterly or annually? If so, are they supposed to keep logs/records of such drills? Can Diver’s request to view?

This unfortunate experience has me questioning the best way to inquire with future dive shops about -their- safety skills, safety drills and first aid equipment practice. Dive shops make diver’s fill out health and ability questionnaires. But they (so far) have never offered me to check their abilities and safety practices.
The #1 person responsible for your safety is always you.

There are two scenarios where I might place increased liability on the dive-shop:
  • During a dive-class. Specifically, dive courses are generally intended to bring students to a new level, and therefore should be carefully instructed on safety and closely monitored, given they may be approaching or beyond their limits at any time. Students are often trusting the instructor to keep them safe.
  • Pushing people to be unsafe. For example, leading people into a cave, who are not cave-certified, deviating from the dive-plan, or leading a group to 130ft, without verifying all have advanced-open-water certifications or adequate experience.
In this particular scenario, the "instructor" was not instructing, and instead acting as a dive-guide. IMO, a dive-guide isn't really responsible for baby-sitting, beyond ensuring the group doesn't get lost, remains together, and has appropriate training/experience for the planned dive. I would also strongly prefer any dive-guide has rescue training, but that training doesn't mean you can save everyone under every circumstance.

I might blame this guide or shop more, if additional information comes out. For for me personally, I never dive anywhere I don't feel safe diving solo.
 
IMO, a dive-guide isn't really responsible for baby-sitting, beyond ensuring the group doesn't get lost, remains together, and has appropriate training/experience for the planned dive.
As I said about this in another post, that may be your opinion, but in general, dive operations, the law, and others will often disagree. A dive guide who assumes he or she will not be held responsible for a dive accident is being very foolish.

If I am just another diver on a dive, and I say something like, "I'm an instructor. Just stay close to me," then I can be held responsible because I have given the impression that the diver can rely on me and will dive with that expectation that I will lend a hand. A dive guide is beyond that in liability.

A dive guide who announces to the group that he has no responsibility for their safety, so don't come to him for help will probably be unemployed after that dive. In past ScubaBoard threads on this topics, dive operators have posted that they absolutely expect their dive guides to be responsible for the safety of the divers.
 
As I said about this in another post, that may be your opinion, but in general, dive operations, the law, and others will often disagree. A dive guide who assumes he or she will not be held responsible for a dive accident is being very foolish.

If I am just another diver on a dive, and I say something like, "I'm an instructor. Just stay close to me," then I can be held responsible because I have given the impression that the diver can rely on me and will dive with that expectation that I will lend a hand. A dive guide is beyond that in liability.

A dive guide who announces to the group that he has no responsibility for their safety, so don't come to him for help will probably be unemployed after that dive. In past ScubaBoard threads on this topics, dive operators have posted that they absolutely expect their dive guides to be responsible for the safety of the divers.
I agree with the majority of what your wrote.

The one thing I will say, is that if as a diver, you need to act as if you are 100.0% responsible for your own safety at all times. Because it doesn't matter who you can blame, if you're dead, you're dead.
 
@sladerer - Again I will say: I am so ever thankful to have been diving with you that day. You exhibited truly heroic actions with clear, concise decisions and actions that gave the decedent the best chances of survival. Unfortunately all of the effort didn’t secure the desired outcome for reasons beyond anyone’s control.

Questions for dive instructors and/or diver’s who work at “certified” dive shops (PADI, SSI…any): Are dive shops required to practice life saving first aid tactics monthly, quarterly or annually? If so, are they supposed to keep logs/records of such drills? Can Diver’s request to view?

This unfortunate experience has me questioning the best way to inquire with future dive shops about -their- safety skills, safety drills and first aid equipment practice. Dive shops make diver’s fill out health and ability questionnaires. But they (so far) have never offered me to check their abilities and safety practices.
Hello. Victim's wife here. I appreciate your post on what you observed. As the comments here are really mostly opinions they aren't leading me to the actual CAUSE. But what you've written does have some things that are more than I knew.

So that I'm not discussing in public what happened there (at least for the moment) if anyone was there and especially the MD that was there wouldn't mind reaching out to me so I can talk with them? Oh gosh I would so appreciate that. I've asked and no one will help me with that. I just googled and found this forum. I have to ask.

If you're willing please originate a direct message and maybe we can connect that way.

Thank you in advance.
Laura
 
Hello. Victim's wife here. I appreciate your post on what you observed. As the comments here are really mostly opinions they aren't leading me to the actual CAUSE. But what you've written does have some things that are more than I knew.

So that I'm not discussing in public what happened there (at least for the moment) if anyone was there and especially the MD that was there wouldn't mind reaching out to me so I can talk with them? Oh gosh I would so appreciate that. I've asked and no one will help me with that. I just googled and found this forum. I have to ask.

If you're willing please originate a direct message and maybe we can connect that way.

Thank you in advance.
Laura
Hi Laura. I was on the dive with your husband. I tried to send you a PM but I am being blocked. I will try to get some info to you...
 
When I realize the reason of death was still unknown and an investigation was still open, I realized how naive my initial approach to hearing about this whole incident was, I actually became glad that I wasn’t diving. I then checked with the 3 other divers if they had been made aware so they could make an informed decision about their personal safety. They had not been told. Staff became angry that I was sharing information about the incident with the other guests, to the point where I was asked to leave.
You acted appropriately as any other concerned individual. A simple: it's currently under investigation by relevant authorities and under PADI rules we cannot participate in any discussion on the matter, and to reassure you their equipment and standards are above board. For them to ask you to leave is an indication they don't care about anything other than themselves. I would write a Google review on their misbehavior.
 
Hi Laura. I was on the dive with your husband. I tried to send you a PM but I am being blocked. I will try to get some info to you...
I had no problem sending her a test message. Can you message others? Are you clear on how to message here?
 
Here is a recap from my perspective. I'm sharing this as I think it benefits everyone to know as much as possible and learn from every incident so we can all help prevent future injuries and deaths.
As I mentioned, there were 10 divers and 2 dive leaders on the boat, plus a mate and captain. 5 divers going on the deep dive (including me, my wife, 2 other divers we had already dived with during the week and the now deceased diver who was on his first dive with us). The dive leader for our group is an instructor, but he was working as a dive master on this dive.
A complete dive briefing was given, including dive details, safety, hand signal and recall procedures. The dive was planned and executed as a drift dive while the boat moved to a shallower area of the reef for the second group of divers. Our dive was to a max depth of about 110' (varied slightly between the group), all divers on air. We did an uneventful descent to about 100', moved across the reef to about 110', then turned and started our ascent at the 14 minute mark. I was mostly looking for photo opps and watching for my wife. The two of us ascended gradually to about 75' as we returned towards our entry point. I then noticed a diver a good bit above us and the dive leader signaling him to descend back to the group. When that diver did not react to the signal, I observed the dive leader ascend to him. grab his BCD, ask if he was OK and grab and look at the divers SPG. The diver appeared to be breathing at that point.
As my wife and I continued up to our safety stop the dive leader ascended to the surface with the apparently struggling diver. My wife and I completed our safety stop and at that point I noticed one of the other divers signaling to us to surface. When I reached the surface, the diver who signaled to us yelled "Help, he's unconscious". I immediately inflated my SMB, extended it into the air and waved it to signal for help while the dive leader and another diver supported the unconscious diver to keep his head above water. There was some chop and it took a few seconds until I spotted the dive boat making it's way to us. The boat was back to us in under 5 minutes and maneuvered directly to the unconscious diver. A civilian yacht was closer but continued past us with no pause. When the dive boat returned they threw out the tag line and then immediately worked to get the diver into the boat. I was furthest from the boat and boarded last, immediately removed my gear and joined the dive leader and diver who called for help in performing CPR. There was no pulse at that point - we continued taking turns providing chest compressions and supplying O2 while continuously clearing his airway of fluid. We confirmed a "pulse" while doing compressions, but otherwise no pulse was present.
The boat returned to retrieve the other divers, with the mate telling my wife there were no other boats available to get them.
Roughly 25 minutes from when I surfaced, we had the 2nd group on the boat. One of them announced he was a doctor and joined us doing CPR. We continued CPR to the dock and another 5+ minutes until the ambulance arrived. We changed out the O2 cylinder for a 2nd one en-route. When EMS arrived, it took them several minutes to get on board. They set up an AED but no pulse was detected while I was in hearing range. He never regained consciousness.

I was told post dive that the now deceased diver had poor buoyancy control throughout the dive, and that someone overheard him say prior to the dive it had been a number of years since his last dive but that he was a dive master. If true, he probably should not have been on our dive, or even on the boat prior to doing a refresher. Beyond that, the dive leader, crew and other capable divers all responded well, even "heroically" if you will, given CPR was performed for almost an hour. The dive leader and one of the other divers skipped their safety stops to respond and the other diver stated his DC wanted a couple minutes of deco. I believe it would be fair to question the decision to retrieve the other divers, but given the sea conditions and wind I believe that it was within reason to not risk any further divers.

If I was running things, I would have suspended diving the next day to do a thorough review with all hands to discuss the circumstances, decisions and allow all others associated with the shop and water sports team to take part. I would also provide time off to the involved staff to process and grieve. As I mentioned in another forum - while there was one fatality, it's fair to say their were multiple "victims", as every diver on that boat and all crew were impacted, if not traumatized, by the events.

To C3Diver - Showing up and interrogating the crew about the previous days events was a poor decision in my opinion. I would not expect the crew to share any details or speculations beyond the fact of the fatality. If a fatality the previous day created doubt, it was your right to cancel. Telling others what you knew to be factual is a judgement call on your part and I understand it, but being an instructor and having led many dives, I would never discuss details of an incident while an investigation was certainly ongoing.
Sorry to ask this but I am a tad confused, you said that the diver was not reacting to the signals and that the dive leader approached him, grabbed his BCD, checked his SPG and he seemed to be breathing. How did water get in his airways if the second stage was still in his mouth?

Again, not wanting to disturb, only to try to understand what lead to this very sad ending...
 
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