Yes unfortunate indeed.
The profit motive takes priority.
American fatality in Exumas, Bahamas
- Thread starter DandyDon
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The profit motive takes priority.
@5cubaN00b There is no universal requirement for "group" training like this, at least not in the US. Each scuba professional is required to renew their certification each year, but that's really reading some stuff and clicking buttons. Every 2 years we have to complete first aid, CPR/AED and O2 Provider (which of these you need varies a little based on your level and agency). One thing you can ask for is to see the emergency/first aid equipment - marine radio, first aid kit(bandages, tourniquets, antiseptic, etc), O2 kit (various masks, full cylinder, etc), fire extinguisher, AED if present. Most boat/dive briefings go over these, and generally repeat them if there are new divers on the boat, but many people don't take the time to really listen or watch where the crew points as discussing these. I have to admit even I have been a little too complacent about assuming things are good when they say they have all of these items.
Instructors who regularly teach SSI Stress and Rescue, PADI Rescue Diver or equivalents do practice many of these if they participate with the students (vs observe while students and assistants do the practical dives). I've taught the course, or assisted, dozens of times. I think this is the most important "specialty" course any diver can take. When combined with First Aid, CPR/AED and O2 Provider (like React Right from DAN or others), you should feel much better prepared. When I was teaching in MD, many of our pros and more seasoned divers who had completed these would often come to the diving part of the course and help out.
Instructors who regularly teach SSI Stress and Rescue, PADI Rescue Diver or equivalents do practice many of these if they participate with the students (vs observe while students and assistants do the practical dives). I've taught the course, or assisted, dozens of times. I think this is the most important "specialty" course any diver can take. When combined with First Aid, CPR/AED and O2 Provider (like React Right from DAN or others), you should feel much better prepared. When I was teaching in MD, many of our pros and more seasoned divers who had completed these would often come to the diving part of the course and help out.
@sladerer I agree with hindsight that asking the diver who was in the water what happened is unfair to the individual involved, but no one shared that he was the one in the water.
I would also put forth, that if the dive leader is too traumatized to talk about the incident (totally agree that is understandable), then they have no business being in the water leading another group of divers while traumatized the next day.
I agree that your suggestion of next day suspension of activities while conducting a safety review may be one way to go that seems appropriate,
If a code of conduct states simply, the DIVE SHOP (not the divers) must disclose an incident that is still under an active investigation and nothing more, that is a big step in the right direction, and I find it hard to imagine that alone puts a dive shop in any increased legal jeopardy, especially if it is mandated to do so, but I am also not a lawyer. So to simply say there are too many legal reasons not to, is to unnecessarily assume a middle ground can not be found.
One thing that I believe many people would find reasonable to agree on - saying nothing, taking new divers, led by the same crew and dive leader the very next day, without reviewing events and safety would not make it into any such a code of conduct.
I am not smart enough to know what is right, so why not have the powers in the industry come together and establish that code of conduct. Something is better than nothing here.
@mmladerer agree, the people involved in the incident should have the chance to be left alone and be allowed to process what has happened. But it has to be balanced with the fact that the next set of divers have a right to ask questions and get information about their safety. The dive shop should not have put this diver in the position of leading a dive the very next day. I do feel for the divers on the day, and those forced into work the next day when they were not ready.
A code of conduct sanctioned by DAN, PADI, SSI, etc would help. Smart lawyers working with divers with a safety mindset can craft a code of conduct that does not add extra legal exposure during an open investigation while mandating a minimum amount of disclosure, and could certainly stipulate a number of safety reviews that need to be carried out. Once they are mandated, the shop can even claim that they are doing them even though they don’t believe it’s necessary. It could actually provide the legal cover to do what’s right. - whatever that is determined to be. Lawyers and diving experts can work out the right middle path if there is enough impetus to do so.
A code of conduct sanctioned by DAN, PADI, SSI, etc would help. Smart lawyers working with divers with a safety mindset can craft a code of conduct that does not add extra legal exposure during an open investigation while mandating a minimum amount of disclosure, and could certainly stipulate a number of safety reviews that need to be carried out. Once they are mandated, the shop can even claim that they are doing them even though they don’t believe it’s necessary. It could actually provide the legal cover to do what’s right. - whatever that is determined to be. Lawyers and diving experts can work out the right middle path if there is enough impetus to do so.
AggieDiver
Contributor
Ok, not to be contrarian, but in a great number of incidents, the dive operation did absolutely nothing wrong, and they bear no responsibility for a fatality that happened to occur while diving. I am not saying that is the case here or assigning any blame for an incident still under investigation. But, whether we like it or not, the population going diving at a lot of places is aging, and in many cases (particularly among Americans) has become more obese and less healthy over time. Many of the fatalities that occur have causes that started in the eating and exercising habits of the deceased long before they reached their dive destination.
Somebody who is more familiar with the DAN statistics can probably chime in to back this up, but cardiac events occurring while diving are the primary cause for quite a few fatalities every year. I don't think it is fair to assume the dive shop should shoulder a level of blame for those deaths when in most of those cases, there was nothing they could do to prevent them.
Asking the dive shop to shut down or to announce to other incoming divers that they had a fatality recently is asking them to put themselves at a competitive disadvantage for something that they may have played no role in causing. You can say it is just to duly inform the public, but how many will turn around and walk back out to go somewhere else or decide not to dive when they hear it? That doesn't mean they are not affected personally by the death and may not question their actions in responding to the incident. I think a thorough debrief among the team reviewing the actions and what they might do differently in the future is appropriate. In this case, I would question the decision to go pick up the other divers while performing CPR. But they are a business, and they don't exist for the good of the public, they exist to make money.
So attacking them for "the profit motive" is disingenuous in my mind. If they are doing things unsafely to increase their profit, fine, criticize them for that. But to assume they should shut down and stop diving which forms their only source of income is a big ask. Some places are still very tight post-Covid and will not have the luxury to just shut down. They have paying guests coming that expect to dive and who will have a bad opinion of them that some will likely share in public if they refuse to take them out on short notice. It is a complicated issue and probably depends on the size of the operation and how easily they can assign different DMs for the day's diving. But I think it is unfair to hold those decisions against them as you seem to be.
Somebody who is more familiar with the DAN statistics can probably chime in to back this up, but cardiac events occurring while diving are the primary cause for quite a few fatalities every year. I don't think it is fair to assume the dive shop should shoulder a level of blame for those deaths when in most of those cases, there was nothing they could do to prevent them.
Asking the dive shop to shut down or to announce to other incoming divers that they had a fatality recently is asking them to put themselves at a competitive disadvantage for something that they may have played no role in causing. You can say it is just to duly inform the public, but how many will turn around and walk back out to go somewhere else or decide not to dive when they hear it? That doesn't mean they are not affected personally by the death and may not question their actions in responding to the incident. I think a thorough debrief among the team reviewing the actions and what they might do differently in the future is appropriate. In this case, I would question the decision to go pick up the other divers while performing CPR. But they are a business, and they don't exist for the good of the public, they exist to make money.
So attacking them for "the profit motive" is disingenuous in my mind. If they are doing things unsafely to increase their profit, fine, criticize them for that. But to assume they should shut down and stop diving which forms their only source of income is a big ask. Some places are still very tight post-Covid and will not have the luxury to just shut down. They have paying guests coming that expect to dive and who will have a bad opinion of them that some will likely share in public if they refuse to take them out on short notice. It is a complicated issue and probably depends on the size of the operation and how easily they can assign different DMs for the day's diving. But I think it is unfair to hold those decisions against them as you seem to be.
Overall great post! But I take some issue with the quoted section above ...
I believe that the Captain has an affirmative (ethical, utilitarian, and likely legal) duty to not put other divers in probable danger through abandonment in the hope of improving the chances of an already severely compromised diver. If there was another boat already on hand that had confirmed contact with, and ability to retrieve, ALL remaining divers in the water, then by all means high-tail it to critical care assistance.
Those other divers did not elect to waive the boat's responsibility to them. If I was the diver in crisis, I would be appalled and shattered if I survived at the expense of abandoning my boat-mates at sea!
Although it has been many years since I have done so, I used to peruse the annual DAN reports carefully and provide analysis on ScubaBoard, usually because people were so frequently misstating them.
It is extremely rare for a dive operation to be considered at fault in a dive fatality.The largest portion of dive fatalities are the result of health emergencies, principally cardiac related. Obesity has been associated with a large percentage of fatalities.
The rare cases for which an operation can be blamed can include things providing improper rental gear, a dive guide leading divers to inappropriate places and depths, a dive guide losing track of a diver who goes missing, bad gas (carbon monoxide), etc. These things happen, but not often at all.
It is very common in Scuba for people to assert that even those cases do not count, since a dive operation has no responsibility for your safety and your decisions during a dive. That is pretty much not true. In those threads, dive operation managers or owners sometimes step in and say that they absolutely expect their employees to be responsible for the divers. A few years ago a Florida operation was severely punished when they failed to perform an effective rescue of a diver struggling on the surface. A San Diego operator went out of business when its on-the-boat DM jumped into the water to help a struggling diver, and his wrong-headed efforts led to a drowning. These uncommon events usually make big news.
It is extremely rare for a dive operation to be considered at fault in a dive fatality.The largest portion of dive fatalities are the result of health emergencies, principally cardiac related. Obesity has been associated with a large percentage of fatalities.
The rare cases for which an operation can be blamed can include things providing improper rental gear, a dive guide leading divers to inappropriate places and depths, a dive guide losing track of a diver who goes missing, bad gas (carbon monoxide), etc. These things happen, but not often at all.
It is very common in Scuba for people to assert that even those cases do not count, since a dive operation has no responsibility for your safety and your decisions during a dive. That is pretty much not true. In those threads, dive operation managers or owners sometimes step in and say that they absolutely expect their employees to be responsible for the divers. A few years ago a Florida operation was severely punished when they failed to perform an effective rescue of a diver struggling on the surface. A San Diego operator went out of business when its on-the-boat DM jumped into the water to help a struggling diver, and his wrong-headed efforts led to a drowning. These uncommon events usually make big news.
Defineate legal duty to not abandon passengers.
There was a fatality on Molokai a few years ago that occurred while a two divers were on CCR and had a deco obligation. The CCR divers had previously told the captain that if anything happened, leave them out there and they would wait for the next ride back. Even with that communication, the captain stayed onsite until the divers surfaced, while CPR was being done on the fatality the whole time. That was absolutely the correct call.
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