Am I being a wimp about these dive plans, or is this how you become a better diver?

[Edward3c]

I was out diving in the Philippines recently. The operator took us to a site where the other paying guest was to do one of their AOW dives. When on site we all started kitting up. Then I assessed the conditions and decided I could get in easily, do the dive without any problem, but getting back on-board without injury was doubtful. I therefore called the dive. the other paying guest then realised the operator didn't have his safety in mind just to complete the OWD at all costs, they also called the dive. A hard lesson to teach. But one the other guest will never forget, and the operator should learn from.

You’re never too experience to call a dive.

 

[PapaRod]

Great discussion. My wife and I are progressing along the same levels, it these questions do come up, when are you ready for that next step in advancing your personal level of difficulty? Part of that answer has to be your comfort level, if it gives you anxiety just thinking about Dive 2 & 3 then that is a concern because any anxiety on the surface will be multiplied under water. We recently completed our AOW and chose to do PPB, Boat & Drift as our 3 elective dives, we are heading to Key Largo next week and will be working on Deep & Wreck specialty’s. As many have already said, don’t do the dive if you have any concerns at all. Diving should be an enjoyable endeavor.

Also, recommend if you want some insight to the world of diving look up the book “The Last Dive” it’s a good exploration of how even the best divers can make mistakes.

 

[johndiver999]

The issue is not about training nor the specific depth and the husband is right about expanding your experience is always going to push you toward the uncomfortable zone.

The real issue is the op’s lack of confidence not certification. If the diver is not reasonably confident, don’t do the dive, even if you have the training and certification. It is ok to be a little nervous and be aware that you are pushing your personal limits, but if you are worried about the dive, take that as a warning.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I see a few additional points that were made since I last stopped by in this thread, and I think they're great:

• The dive operator is not the ultimate judge of what is safe enough; rather, it's the diver herself.
• The diver should keep in mind that the other side of the coin on every dive is being confident enough and comfortable enough to assist one's buddy in an emergency. Under any given set of conditions (depth, visibility, cold, etc.) a diver may have one comfort level for just swimming merrily along and another (likely lower) comfort level if taking into account that the diver may need to render assistance to a buddy. A diver may feel ready to assist when swimming along in 50 feet of clear tropical water, but not ready to assist when it's deeper, more difficult to see, colder, etc.
• Maybe this is a corollary to the previous point, but we as divers cannot assume the "professional" divemaster is there to save us. Rather, unless the divers are qualified "solo divers" and treating the dive as a solo dive, with all the redundant gear and what-not that may entail, we each need to be ready to assist our buddy using the methods we were trained to use.

With respect to the swim-through ...

If the swim thru is more than a body length and two people cannot pass through side by side either some level of cave or wreck penetration training.

That's pretty common threshold criteria that divers use to judge whether or not to do a swim-through. I might be comfortable with two or even three body lengths. (The classic "swim across the wheelhouse.") I also take into account the depth (am I likely to be a little narced), the width (maybe it's even wider than two divers), how the light looks coming from the other side, the visibility in general, and maybe other factors. I think (but cannot be sure) we can assume that in the OP's case we're talking about a sanitized-for-divers wreck swim-through, without sharp bits of rusty metal or silt-up potential, and that the site gets regular diver traffic. So, objectively, statistically, it's probably "safe" for the average diver. The question is really one of individual diver comfort level.

As I see it, the bottom line is that despite all the preparation, what matters is how the individual diver feels about each of the dives in question when the time comes. Comfortable, or not?

Edit (adding): I also agree with those who have pointed out that a diver's skill level will stagnate unless the diver challenges their comfort zone. But what has also been said, and I think bears repeating, is that a diver should expand their limits gradually. Maybe don't do a dive to 100 feet until a dive to, say, 80 feet feels comfortable. Maybe don't do a dive to 50 feet in poor visibility until a dive to 50 feet in good visibility feels comfortable. And so forth. Granted, there are certain situations where a diver has to take a leap, such as the diver's first night dive; most of us don't do a series of dives later and later in the day to ease into it. But those kinds of leaps are generally done under supervision of an instructor.

 

[Celt]

It's true some level of inference occurs in these matters; we don't have all the data for a complete picture, so we have to 'connect the dots.' But we can do so logically, albeit with a risk of occasionally drawing an inaccurate conclusion.

It's true the shop likely isn't pushing her to do any dives (at least at this point). If this is a common Caribbean region scenario, a guide will lead a group, with this couple as part of it. She may not be under much professional supervision, as she's a certified diver, not taking a dive course.

On ScubaBoard, for a diver not thought to be cave certified to do some cave dives (even allegedly 'really safe ones') is a trigger casting someone's judgment into strong question. Maybe there's some explanation that would mitigate that, but we don't have it, and the default position tends to be that uncertified cave diving is moronic and dangerous.

If he thinks they'll be diving together, and he's got more experience and risk tolerance, her conservatism may hold him back a bit. That's my inference, not demonstrated reality. The impression I get from her original post on this thread is that she perceives it that way. It's a conflict of interest; he may be a fine fellow, but the temptation to 'encourage' (i.e.: pressure) her to see things in a way that facilitates what he wants to happen may be there. Even good people may rationalize serving their own desires. Note: between his 'cave diving' and her emphasis on adhering to indoctrination (e.g.: 'hammered into her skull' in training), it seems we may have a risk taker paired with a rule follower. Even if both are safe enough divers, just being at opposite ends of the bell curve may cause friction.

I'm not vilifying him. She was concerned enough to bring this issue to a public forum seeking guidance. She's got 12 dives and is concerned maybe she's 'being wimp,' and he supposedly cave dives (with ~ 150 dives mostly in high school and college, most not recent...I'm guessing without cave or cavern cert.?).

Nuance is key here. If we're talking an arbitrary belief 55 feet is okay but 65 feet is not, for example, I agree. But we may be talking about a different scenario...

1.) With a professional guide may not mean much if he's leading a group and not paying special attention to her. If he's made aware of her experience he might.

Note: bit of a tangent, but sometimes with less experienced divers, people choose to hire a private guide to provide more extensive direct supervision when diving a new place, pushing limits, etc...

2.) Diving 100 feet is not just a little further than 52. The more rapid air consumption and narcosis risks are substantial, as is the mental stress that while psychosomatic is still real.

---

I suspect if she does the dives she will probably return safely. But if she doesn't, and this matter turns into an Accidents & Incidents thread, we'll be talking about how some deaths are the end result of a cascade of bad choices that could've been aborted at a number of points, and how foolish risk-taking has put another body in the ground.

The people the OP should share her concerns with are the people she plans on diving with. She’s an adult, she doesn’t have to do anything she’s not comfortable with, if she knows the dive she wants to do then she should know the dives she doesn’t.

 

[Lorenzoid]

The people the OP should share her concerns with are the people she plans on diving with.

I would rephrase: "The people the OP may wish to share her concerns with are the people she plans on diving with." She shouldn't feel obligated to discuss why she doesn't feel like doing a particular dive. Again, it's that "Anyone can call any dive at any time for any reason without being questioned" thing.

 

[Celt]

I would rephrase: "The people the OP may wish to share her concerns with are the people she plans on diving with." She shouldn't feel obligated to discuss why she doesn't feel like doing a particular dive. Again, it's that "Anyone can call any dive at any time for any reason without being questioned" thing.

I’d talk to the people I plan on getting in the water with before getting the opinions of strangers on a public forum. A lot of drama I think.

 

[boulderjohn]

If the swim thru is more than a body length and two people cannot pass through side by side either some level of cave or wreck penetration training. Depending on if it's a natural or manmade overhead.

I believe this is over the top.

 

[drrich2]

I’d talk to the people I plan on getting in the water with before getting the opinions of strangers on a public forum.

She did with her husband, and his responses are in the original post. They didn't resolve the issue, hence she came here. She may well discuss the matter with the dive op. people, but there are a few issues with that:

1.) Just which staff those will be may not be evident till they show up to dive.
2.) That situation may require booking the dives in advance, and the cost may be non-refundable if she opts out day-off, maybe even on-the-boat.

That said, you have a fair point. It'd be interesting for her to e-mail the dive services provider directly, share her concerns and ask their feedback. If she does, I hope she shares what she's told.

Fair warning to the original poster - if you do that, a liability risk-averse op. may advise you not to do the dive, or forbid you doing it, simply because will all this build-up, in the event you die or something, it would look bad for them. What's their alternative? To e-mail you reassurance that no, this dive will be no big deal for you? Then there's a written statement by them on record.

To side-step that liability landmine for them, a phone call might work out better. Note: I'd suggest doing it when your husband isn't around to interfere. Have your questions written out in advance, so you can make sure all your concerns are addressed.

Richard.

 

[Lorenzoid]

In addition to what Richard said above, I'd point out (respectfully to @mac64 ) that people often turn to relatively anonymous public forums to ask things they wouldn't ask the people who are actually involved. There may be biases, emotions, and other factors that the OP might want to avoid by asking forum members who have no skin in the game.