Alpha "Dive" Flag

[Skull]

Thank you N ...as usual you are correct sir ... like I said before N, was first mate on St Peters fishing skiff back on the Galilee when JC was teaching everyone how to walk on water ...dude has been around.

For the record I dive routinely in Mexican waters and always have my alpha flying ...wouldn't want my rig becoming a pleasure craft of the local police chief in Rosarito Baja Mx. ...

 

[captndale]

Captndale: That is exactly my interpretation of the rule also, with the possible exception of "1 meter square" Alpha Flat. I don't believe that the flag is square, if you mean that your flag is 1 meter by 1 meter in size. I believe the flag is more rectangular.

I only meant that the overall dimensions were approximately one square meter. Of course the flag is not square. It really is not rectangular either. It is swallow-tailed. My flag is one meter high and slightly more than one meter long. I have never put stiffeners in it because the material is light enough that the slightest wind holds it out and I am displaying the day shapes anyway, so I am not actually required to display the alpha flag.

 

[Nemrod]

Hummm, I never said 1 meter square, except when questioning captndale. His post is the first that mentions it, and other than quotes, the only other mention is when I 1) questioned the 1 meter square not thinking the flag is square, but more rectangular) and 2) again when I restated that the Rule says "not less than 1 meter in height".

If following this conversation is too taxing, you may simply unsubscribe and refrain from contributing to the complexity.

I will wait and see what the official ruling is, and will post what I find out, just in case there is someone out there who might want to know the rule, not just what others are doing to get around it.

Nemrod, I see where you are coming from. My intentions of asking what you do to comply was aimed more at do you make your own? Do you make a replica out of wood, plastic, metal, etc. But, I can see how you read it to ask if you really do follow the rule. Just for edification, when I posted this originally, I never had second thoughts as to IF it should be that size, or IF I should follow my state's law regarding flying it, but rather how are others complying with it given I couldn't locate an online vendor for one greater than a meter (39") in height.

No worries about tickets, I haven't dove off my boats yet. But I am hoping to this summer.

You will have fun diving from your own boat, have a good time.

I think I will purchase an alpha flag, a small one BUT the way I anchor usually for diving is I use a ball and then I hook to the ball, not always of course. This means my boat is not really "restricted" in it's ability to manuver since it can be quickly disconnected from the ball and then return to the ball as needed. The alpha flag was as I have read and been told before is for use when there are operations with divers attached to the vessal such that it cannot manuver at all. Scuba divers from small vessals don't seem to fit that description and this comes up frequently and every time I know off it has been stated it is not required to fly the alpha flag but then you come across the one coastie or sheriff patrol that thinks you do so perhaps the best thing to do is to fly both to avoid trouble.

Skull, lol, I am just a little trailer boater, not a licensed captain of which we have several floating about this board. Somehow I have managed not to get us killed but I figure it was always luck more than any skill or vast knowledge on my part.

I just cannot imagine that a sea going leo is going to jump me because I am not flying the alpha flag if I have the red and white stripe divers flag displayed. A boat on drift such as is done commonly in the east coast of Florida is in fact manuvering and not at all restricted in movement. It just seems we are in some ways misusing the alpha flag when used for scuba and especially if the boat is not restricted in it's ability to manuver.

On Lake Powell, I just do not recall seeing an alpha flag--ever. It could be I just never noticed, it is a big lake and easy to not see a blue flag at a distance unlike the more visible red and white divers flag.

I think the term "rigid" can be satisfied by a wire reinforced flag as is common practice. The wire or rod holds the flag outward making it's shape and color and meaning more easily visible. I don't think I would interpret that as needing a metal or plastic or wooden flag symbol especially a meter square because I simply have no place to store such a device on my little boat or anything substantial enough to hang it from and it could even be a danger.

Please do post the answer you get from the USCG but there is a catch. These government bodies have rules and then they offer bulletins or other information to clarify which usually have legal weight. Sometimes various regional offices fail to read or comply with their own policy. Simiarly I suspect that the Notices to Mariners etc would supercede a policy statement email/postal letter to you unless they release another official notice. Per that notice, the alpha flag is not required it seems.

From another link:
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"Perhaps the biggest difference between the two is that the traditional red & white diver-down flag is intended to protect divers themselves, while the blue & white alpha flag is intended to protect vessels from collision. The alpha flag is internationally understood to mean: "I have a diver down; This boat is restricted in its ability to maneuver, so keep clear and keep to a slow speed." Generally, only vessels to which the divers are physically connected by communication lines, air hoses, or the like in international water are required to display the alpha flag, but common sense suggests displaying both flags can't hurt."
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Again, if you read the above a small vessal with scuba divers is not "getting around" a law if not flying the alpha flag but is in fact not required to fly one at all.

It seems flying both might be prudent but is not required, could be wrong and could even be seen as a misuse of the alpha flag.

Waterskier, you might like this pic:

There are so many rules now for everything I just figure nowadays I am already guilty of something.
:smash::toilet
N

 

[Waterskier1]

Ok, for those of you who care, this is the response I just received from the USCG. Please don't shoot the messenger!:no

Regarding Navigation Rule 27(e), "not less than one meter in height" refers to the height of the flag not its displayed height-which should be were best practicable and such that it can be seen at great distance; 'rigid' as defined by Merriam-Webster means "deficient in or devoid of flexibility", which could be accomplished by a framework which insures the flag is always taut and all-round visible at all times.

We hope this answer you inquiry and exhort you to always navigate safely,

U.S. Coast Guard
Office of Navigation Systems

Grammar and spelling are the authors, I simply cut and pasted.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Well I read all 8 pages, just to see if anyone did an easy web search for the applicable rules (I did after reading the first couple posts).

Due to my location, I yahoo'd Hawaii dive flag rules and came up with this page in the first few hits.

In Hawaii, vessels 16' or less in length are required to fly a 1'x1' red and white dive flag above the highest point of the vessel (visible from all directions), same size as freedivers and scuba divers with no boat (floating 1'x1' red and white dive flag). Vessels over 16' in length must fly a red and white dive flag not less than 20"x24", in addition to the USCG required Alfa Flag (both visible from all directions).

There is a Colorado page on that site, that confirms the rules as stated in the OP. In Colorado, boats of any size are required to fly the authorized Alpha Flag, and are not required to fly the red and white dive flag.

For Lake Powell, straddling the border between Utah and Arizona; Utah requires either a square red and white dive flag (no apparent size stipulation) or the above cited Alpha Flag and Arizona only requires the red and white dive flag (also no apparent size stipulation) although it mentions the Alpha Flag in it's Boaters Guide.

OK, including the time it took to read all the posts and compose this post it took me ~90 minutes to come up with the fact that a properly outfitted Colorado boat might very well be in violation in Arizona waters, where as a properly outfitted Hawaii boat would be fine in Arizona waters. If you are going to only fly the Alpha Flag, stay in Utah waters.

 

[Nemrod]

Like I said, unless they issue a Notice to Mariners requiring a rigid 1 meter flag on small vessals I think I can safely ignore that one because I have already quoted the ruling wherein the size of the flag is appropriate to the vessal and in any case---you still don't need one. An unmanned boat at anchor is not restricted in movement due to divers, it is at anchor. I don't think the alpha flag is appropriate for a vessal at anchor with nobody aboard. Did you ask them that, get back to me on that, it will take them a month. Then ask them if you are required to fly the alpha flag at all. That ought to take several quotations from Websters to provide a smart arse answer to you for a honest question. At least you tried. That answer from the Coast Guard is a fine quality non answer typical of the government, gibberish and means nothing.

and quote:

"OK, including the time it took to read all the posts and compose this post it took me ~90 minutes to come up with the fact that a properly outfitted Colorado boat might very well be in violation in Arizona waters, where as a properly outfitted Hawaii boat would be fine in Arizona waters. If you are going to only fly the Alpha Flag, stay in Utah waters."

But in both Arizona and Utah you would be OK with ONLY the red and white diver down flag.

Quote USCG:

"We hope this answer you inquiry and exhort you to always navigate safely"

I know I make a lot of typos but I don't think that sentence is a typo, if you are anchored you are not navigating.
N

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

From another link:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Perhaps the biggest difference between the two is that the traditional red & white diver-down flag is intended to protect divers themselves, while the blue & white alpha flag is intended to protect vessels from collision. The alpha flag is internationally understood to mean: "I have a diver down; This boat is restricted in its ability to maneuver, so keep clear and keep to a slow speed." Generally, only vessels to which the divers are physically connected by communication lines, air hoses, or the like in international water are required to display the alpha flag, but common sense suggests displaying both flags can't hurt."
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Again, if you read the above a small vessal with scuba divers is not "getting around" a law if not flying the alpha flag but is in fact not required to fly one at all.

It seems flying both might be prudent but is not required, could be wrong and could even be seen as a misuse of the alpha flag.

In Colorado, flying the minimum 1 meter tall alpha flag is required by State boating regulations for all vessels with divers in the water. There is no requirement to use the red and white dive flag at any time, so when anchored or moored with divers in the water it would seem the only flag to fly is the alpha flag.

In Hawaii, vessels over 16' in length not flying the minimum 1 meter tall alpha flag and the minimum 20"x24" red & white dive flag are not in compliance with State boating regulations. I know of no commercial dive vessels less than 16' in length.

My understanding of the USCG is that they do not make regulations, they enforce regulations, and in Hawaii you do not want them to board your vessel to enforce any and all regulations that you might be in non compliance with! All our responsible dive boats over 16' fly both flags of at least the minimum size; some may not be responsible.

 

[Waterskier1]

I asked the USCG to point me to a law, regulation, etc., that would reference the interpretation they provided (see Post #74). Here is their response:

33 CFR §80.1 defines the term "height above the hull" as the height above the uppermost continuous deck", which is what Rule 27(e) would have stated, if that were the intent of the Rule.

I also asked if they would disseminate this clarification to the public, or put it in their FAQ's and here is what they said:

Note, we have received questions previously regarding what the difference is between the Code "A" and 'Diver Down' flag; yours is the first we have received in 9 years regarding its height and rigidity.

So, they don't know or believe that there is anyone questioning what the "greater than 1 meter in height" refers to.

As Halemano has stated, Colorado requires the an Alpha flag, greater than 1 meter in height, anytime divers are down. It also requires the divers (not the boat) to have the red/white diver's down flag. Each state has it's own requirements regarding what/how a boat indicates that there are divers off his vessel in the water. In addition, the Nav Rules apply to waters controlled by the USCG (mostly navigable waters inland, and international ).

Please note that nothing above is intended to tell you when you might be required to fly the Alpha Flag. You have to read your own state and local laws to determine even if you are required to. I had read my state law, and found I was, so I posted originally to find one that met the greater than 1 meter size requirements, and discussion ensued as to whether I need to fly it, what size it should be, whether I needed it if anchored, or if not anchored, the wisdom of leaving a boat anchored with no one on board, the legality of that, and a host of other things.

Each state may have it's own size requirement for the diver down flag, some depending on if ti's towed by the diver or on a boat, and even the size of the boat. I have not performed an exhaustive search of all state and local boating requirements, but I have not found a single instance that when the Alpha Flag was required, that the size was anything different from the Federal Requirements.

All that being said, the only source I have found to date is that which is posted in Post #22, and it is only $34.95 including shipping in the USA!

I hope this information is useful to some.

 

[Nemrod]

Thank you for the information, it will all be useful to me if not to you.

Now, why dive in Colorado, is there anything in a lake in Colorado other than cold water than can not be seen on the banks surrounding the lake?

Lake Powell, which is not in Colorado, not much there either, been there and done that other than an underwater land slide.

According to you guys many states are misinterpreting the signals as they were originally intended to be used since clearly the alpha flag is for use by attached/surface supplied and diving bell/suit divers of which scuba would not be included. I would assume the codes they are copying into law would still mean "attached."

Here is another resource. Where new information exists you can copy it to the site.

Dive Flag Law

Most states that I have operated in, Louisiana, California, Florida, Alabama, Arizona, Utah, Arkansas and Missouri, Texas and Ohio and with the exception of Ohio don't need an Alpha flag. Ohio seems to require one for a vessal over 12 meters length. That would be well beyond the size of my small vessals so I guess we are free and clear there as well.

Ohio Dive Flag Laws
Here are some relevant sections of the Ohio Revised Code that reference Ohio dive flag usage laws:

1547.08 Operation in certain areas prohibited; no wake or idle speed areas; marking by buoys or signs.

(D) No person shall operate a vessel within three hundred feet of an official diver's flag unless the person is tendering the diving operation.

1547.01 Definitions.

(1) "Vessel" includes every description of watercraft, including nondisplacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

(22) "Diver's flag" means a red flag not less than one foot square having a diagonal white stripe extending from the masthead to the opposite lower corner that when displayed indicates that divers are in the water.


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From Ohio Administrative Code, Division of Watercraft. Highlighted passages indicate that an Alpha flag should be used on most boat diving operations in public waters. It would appear that the "code A" (Apha) flag is required regardless of the size of the watercraft.



1501:47 Division of Watercraft

1501:47-2-27 Vessels not under command or restricted in their ability to maneuver.

(A) A vessel not under command shall exhibit:

(1) Two all-round red lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen.

(2) Two balls or similar shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen.

(3) When making way through the water, in addition to the lights prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a sternlight.

(B) A vessel restricted in its ability to maneuver, except a vessel engaged in minesweeping operations, shall exhibit:

(1) Three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white.

(2) Three shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these shapes shall be balls and the middle one a diamond.

(3) When making way through the water, masthead lights, sidelights and a sternlight, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (B)(1) of this rule.

(4) When at anchor, in addition to the lights or shapes prescribed in paragraphs (B)(1) and (B)(2) of this rule, the light, lights or shapes prescribed in rule 1501:47-2-30 of the Administrative Code.

(C) A vessel engaged in a towing operation which severely restricts the towing vessel and its tow in their ability to deviate from their course shall, in addition to the lights or shapes prescribed in paragraphs (B)(1) and (B)(2) of this rule, exhibit the lights or shape prescribed in rule 1501:47-2-24 of the Administrative Code.

(D) A vessel engaged in dredging or underwater operations, when restricted in its ability to maneuver, shall exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in paragraphs (B)(1), (B)(2), and (B)(3) of this rule and shall in addition, when an obstruction exists, exhibit:

(1) Two all-round red lights or two balls in a vertical line to indicate the side on which the obstruction exists.

(2) Two all-round green lights or two diamonds in a vertical line to indicate the side on which another vessel may pass.

(3) When at anchor, the lights or shape prescribed by this rule, instead of the lights or shapes prescribed in rule 1501:47-2-30 of the Administrative Code for anchored vessels.

(E) Whenever the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impracticable to exhibit all lights and shapes prescribed in paragraph (D) of this rule, the following shall instead be exhibited:

(1) Three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen; the highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white.

(2) A rigid replica of the International Code flag "A" not less than one meter in height; measures shall be taken to insure its all-round visibility.

(F) A vessel engaged in minesweeping operations shall, in addition to the lights prescribed for a power-driven in rule 1501:47-2-23 of the Administrative Code, exhibit three all-round green lights or three balls. One of these lights or shapes shall be exhibited near the foremast head and one at each end of the fore yard. These lights or shapes indicate that it is dangerous for another vessel to approach closer than one thousand meters astern or five hundred meters on either side of the minesweeper.

(G) A vessel of less than twelve meters in length, except when engaged in diving operations, is not required to exhibit the lights or shapes prescribed in this rule.

(H) The signals prescribed in this rule are not signals of vessels in distress and requiring assistance. Such signals are contained in annex IV of the "I.N.R.A."

No person shall operate or permit to be operated, any vessel on the waters in this state, in violation of this rule.
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Ohio seems to contradict itself adding to the confusion.

Now, that the OP has located a suitable flag of 1 meter size, upon what would you display it, the VHF?

Halemano, if I ever manage to get to Hawaii in my 19 footer (which is less than 12 meters waterline) then an alpha flag will not be my worry.

I am so glad the government is here to protect us.

N

 

[Waterskier1]

Thank you for the information, it will all be useful to me if not to you.

Now, why dive in Colorado, is there anything in a lake in Colorado other than cold water than can not be seen on the banks surrounding the lake?

Because that is where I live and have my ski boat - which admittedly isn't a good dive platform (Crownline 20-ft O/B - so it's not a real ski boat either, but we still ske behind it).

Lake Powell, which is not in Colorado, not much there either, been there and done that other than an underwater land slide.

Because that is where I have a houseboat and tow my ski boat to vacation (waterski).

Both reasons predate my becoming a diver, and I just want to find places to get wet, besides the Blue Hole, which isn't in Colorado either, but is the main dive destination for "local" diving because of it's constant 64* temp year round (the water in Colorado tends to get "hard" in the winter.

Since I have a boat, I thought it might be fun to dive from it and get to see some parts of the lake that you can't access easily from the shore. We don't have many DPVs here.