Alpha "Dive" Flag

[Waterskier1]

Great deal on Alpha Dive Flag from Divers-Supply.com

$24.95 + TAX AND SHIPPING ...

How hard was that .

Not hard at all. I found that exact one and almost ordered it until I found it didn't meet spec. That's when I started googling for a compliant one, didn't find one (as mentioned above, I've had two responses for compliant sizes in response to this thread.

Also nobody in the USCG is going to pop you for having an Alpha or Diver Down flag out of regulation less it fits on your back window of your truck as in a sticker form.

You bet you life and life savings on that?

Sounds like you are looking to be right rather than doing 10 seconds of a google search.

I don't see the relationship between being right, and searching google something wrong. Is there some new rule that "if you don't find it in 10 seconds on google, you can ignore the law" that I am not aware of? I did that search, and found NONE that met the over 1 meter (39 inches) in height requirement. So, rather than order the first wrong item, I posted this to see where people were getting the correct one. Little did I know that most of you didn't know what he requirement is.

Nemrod is completely correct here btw, I have never been stopped by the USCG for a non regulation/ or "rigid" flag in SoCal on the water. They usually bust your chops for fire extinguishers being low or out of date Flares and life preservers to bodies ratios ...etc.

Relax ...bust out your CC and pick one up online.

Just because you haven't been stopped doesn't mean you are in compliance. You have never exceeded the speed limit without being caught?

This isn't a matter of cost. Never have I said "they cost too much".

My biggest concern is if there were some sort of accident. I know LEs will do a full investigation, as will the injured's insurance company. If I am not in full compliance, then I can be held partially contributory to the accident. I personally have been involved in these investigations resulting in serious injury or death (boating, but not scuba related). I have been summoned to court to testify about my findings. For a few dollars I don't think that is wise. In addition, due to my work, I am expected and expect myself to follow the Rules. Don't want to be like our DA who is video taped drinking over 140 oz of beer on the job then driving the county car drunk. :11:

But I understand that there are those of you for whatever reasons follow the "Damn the Rules, full throttle ahead" philosophy. To each their own....but why ridicule me for wanting to follow the law (originally typed to it right, but sure don't want to open that can in here!)?

 

[Nemrod]

Well, two things in the above. Each State has it's own laws, and they are not universal across all states. As for Lake Powell, Utah's law is R651-203-4. Diver’s Flag. it says: "A square, red flag with a white diagonal stripe from one top corner to the opposite bottom corner should be used to indicate the presence of a diver below. A rigid replica of the International Code “A” flag not less than one meter in height may also be used. The operator of any vessel shall not approach within 150 feet of a posted diver’s flag, unless the vessel is part of the equipment in use by the divers." So, In Utah, the Alpha Flag is not required. I have patrolled on Lake Powell for many years. It has shared Law Enforcement (LE) with the primary Federal LE being National Parks, but other Federal Agencies including USCG have LE authority. In addition, Utah State has LE authority (Utah State Parks, and Utah State Patrol) along with three different County Sheriffs.



The size of the Diver's Flag (the Red and white flag) varies according to State. The Florida law is now different from what you remember. For dive flags, here is a helpful site. I don't guarantee that the info is up to date, but it does give the code of the law so that will help your search for up to date law. Note that he doesn't always give boat requirements, which could be in addition to those of divers in the water - the generally accepted meaning of the flag.

I have not found a single state that requires the Alpha Flag be flown that specifies a size different than from the Federal Requirements. I have checked several around me, but have not performed an exhaustive search. I think it quite reasonable to believe that the Federal Requirement (whatever it turns out to be) would be sufficient in all states since most states are simply copying the Federal Code. I know for a fact that the USCG and USCG Aux teach 1 meter in height as the size of the flag, not it's position. But then, if the USCG can't even provide an answer without going to their Subject Matter Expert (SME) how could we expect everyone else to know?



My research has revealed that most states and subordinate political subdivisions recognize and many require the use of the dive flag BY DIVERS.

The Nav Rule 27 acknowledges that small vessels can't have all the day shapes displayed, and that is why the Alpha Flag came about. Captndale doesn't need to display it, since he has all the requisite day shapes required by law already displayed. I believe he is displaying it because if you think we have problems with people understanding the red/white divers flag, much less the Alpha Flag, who would begin to understand the day shapes and light (red over white over red) that applies to larger vessels. I agree with him that I'll do whatever to convey my intentions and limitations as long as it isn't prohibited by some law.

The problem comes when we discuss boats who have divers in the water, and are limited in their ability to maneuver. Colorado requires the divers to have within 100 feet the dive flag, (or tow it such that it is) whether they are off a boat or shore diving. If they are off a boat, then the boat to display the Alpha Flag.

I am totally amazed at how this thread has evolved. And that I have only received one PM and one Post regarding my original question. I hope this will be a learning experience to all.

BTW, since I am patrolling and work with Law Enforcement routinely, I though it prudent to fully comply with the laws, where ever I boat. Kind of like setting a good example.

You asked a question and now your telling us the answer and I am telling you that right or wrong, the meter in height is taken to be above deck and that I have never been bothered about not flying an alpha flag, especially one nearly as large as my boat or in the case of my kayak big enough to be a sail for it. I have been bothered by authorities in Florida for not having the correct size red and white stripe divers flag on my kayak which was satisfied by towing the smaller flag on a bouy once I disembarked from the yak. Aboard my Boston Whaler I fly the red and white diver flag as required by the waters I boat in from Arizona's Lake Powell to the Channel Islands to the Great Lakes to the lakes of Missouri to the Gulf of Mexico and not one time has anyone fussed at me over not flying the alpha flag.

Your so right, your wrong. That said, I think your problem is attempting to codify an international flag for state and territorial waters which are not international and do not perhaps require international flag symbols or day symbols aboard private pleasure craft.

Perhaps since your in law enforcemnt then you could ticket yourself for not being in compliance with all the gibberish. Just teasing you, take care, hope you figure it out to your satisfaction. Sorry we could not answer your question to your agreement.

Not my Whaler but this looks typical of us:

N

 

[Skull]

Not hard at all. I found that exact one and almost ordered it until I found it didn't meet spec. That's when I started googling for a compliant one, didn't find one (as mentioned above, I've had two responses for compliant sizes in response to this thread.



You bet you life and life savings on that?


I don't see the relationship between being right, and searching google something wrong. Is there some new rule that "if you don't find it in 10 seconds on google, you can ignore the law" that I am not aware of? I did that search, and found NONE that met the over 1 meter (39 inches) in height requirement. So, rather than order the first wrong item, I posted this to see where people were getting the correct one. Little did I know that most of you didn't know what he requirement is.



Just because you haven't been stopped doesn't mean you are in compliance. You have never exceeded the speed limit without being caught?

This isn't a matter of cost. Never have I said "they cost too much".

My biggest concern is if there were some sort of accident. I know LEs will do a full investigation, as will the injured's insurance company. If I am not in full compliance, then I can be held partially contributory to the accident. I personally have been involved in these investigations resulting in serious injury or death (boating, but not scuba related). I have been summoned to court to testify about my findings. For a few dollars I don't think that is wise. In addition, due to my work, I am expected and expect myself to follow the Rules. Don't want to be like our DA who is video taped drinking over 140 oz of beer on the job then driving the county car drunk. :11:

But I understand that there are those of you for whatever reasons follow the "Damn the Rules, full throttle ahead" philosophy. To each their own....but why ridicule me for wanting to follow the law (originally typed to it right, but sure don't want to open that can in here!)?

if you are involved in a accident on the water ...you are automatically partically at fault get used to it, USCG and your insurance company should have already informed you of this.

Divers supply isn't in the business of selling out of compliance flags ...just pick on up and us it ... and yes I would bet my life savings that the Alpha flag I use( FTR it is not rigid and it is not 1 meter square) is not going to be an issue with the USCG since they board my boat routinely in San Diego ...

 

[Waterskier1]

Just teasing you, take care, hope you figure it out to your satisfaction. Sorry we could not answer your question to your agreement.

N

The funny (or sad) thing is I didn't start this post asking a question about size, or if I need to fly it, or if I'll get caught, or if anyone else ever got caught, or what the Federal Rules versus State Rules are. I knew (or thought I did) those answers. My original question was what you all were doing to comply. (Or did I leave off the comply? -- if so it was implied). I am only asking the question for the Official Answer because I am amazed at how varied the responses are, and do not feel that simply stating that in my 30 years association with the USCG that is not how we teach it". Therefore, I went to what I'd hoped to be the horses mouth, fully expecting an immediate answer with the Chaper and Verse (of the CFR, COLREGS, Nav Rules Annex) so I could point any questions to that law.

Imagine my surprise when even the Nav Center can't answer it. So, for now, I'll give them a few more days.

 

[Skull]

You asked a question and now your telling us the answer and I am telling you that right or wrong, the meter in height is taken to be above deck and that I have never been bothered about not flying an alpha flag, especially one nearly as large as my boat or in the case of my kayak big enough to be a sail for it. I have been bothered by authorities in Florida for not having the correct size red and white stripe divers flag on my kayak which was satisfied by towing the smaller flag on a bouy once I disembarked from the yak. Aboard my Boston Whaler I fly the red and white diver flag as required by the waters I boat in from Arizona's Lake Powell to the Channel Islands to the Great Lakes to the lakes of Missouri to the Gulf of Mexico and not one time has anyone fussed at me over not flying the alpha flag.

Your so right, your wrong. That said, I think your problem is attempting to codify an international flag for state and territorial waters which are not international and do not perhaps require international flag symbols or day symbols aboard private pleasure craft.

Perhaps since your in law enforcemnt then you could ticket yourself for not being in compliance with all the gibberish. Just teasing you, take care, hope you figure it out to your satisfaction. Sorry we could not answer your question to your agreement.

Not my Whaler but this looks typical of us:

N

N

I think I mentioned this in the boating thread but the Navy SeALS at the amphib base here in san diego missed the beach on San Clemente Island last summer and drove the exact same style whaler on the rocks ...tore several human head sized holes in the bottom ... the Seabees nabbed it ...patched it and hung two straight out of the box Yamaha 225's on it ... I got a chucke out of the patch job but thought of your posts concerning whalers ... even the Navy won't throw them away ...love the port side dive door ...

 

[Waterskier1]

if you are involved in a accident on the water ...you are automatically partically at fault get used to it, USCG and your insurance company should have already informed you of this.

I recognize this all too fully, (see my post above re:accident investigation) hence my desire to comply with the full extent of the law, if I possibly can. I give this as example. You are flying your red/white dive flag or a mini Alpha Flag. Some doesn't yield to your signals, and enters the area, striking a surfacing diver. Who is at fault. Is one 100% at fault and the other 0%? Or, do both skippers share in the fault? I was on an investigation similar, but relating to water ski flags. The state that this occurred in has a rule that you must have a red/orange flag, giving the specific minimum size, displayed whenever a skier or equipment is in the water. This ski boat didn't display the flag. Another boat ran over their skier. The courts found both skippers to be at fault. It would not have made any difference in this specific case if the skipper of the downed skier had a flag up or not, since the skipper of the other boat was facing backwards and didn't look forward for over the 25 seconds I watched/chased him. I testified to this, but the lawyers for the defendant were able to shift partial blame (and partial judgment) to the first skipper.

Divers supply isn't in the business of selling out of compliance flags ...just pick on up and us it ... and yes I would bet my life savings that the Alpha flag I use( FTR it is not rigid and it is not 1 meter square) is not going to be an issue with the USCG since they board my boat routinely in San Diego ...

Just so this doesn't get propagated further, the Rule states "not less than 1 meter in height". Not 1 meter square.

 

[Nemrod]

The funny (or sad) thing is I didn't start this post asking a question about size, or if I need to fly it, or if I'll get caught, or if anyone else ever got caught, or what the Federal Rules versus State Rules are. I knew (or thought I did) those answers. My original question was what you all were doing to comply. (Or did I leave off the comply? -- if so it was implied). I am only asking the question for the Official Answer because I am amazed at how varied the responses are, and do not feel that simply stating that in my 30 years association with the USCG that is not how we teach it". Therefore, I went to what I'd hoped to be the horses mouth, fully expecting an immediate answer with the Chaper and Verse (of the CFR, COLREGS, Nav Rules Annex) so I could point any questions to that law.

Imagine my surprise when even the Nav Center can't answer it. So, for now, I'll give them a few more days.

I understood your question and the sad thing is that I answered it from my perspective as you asked. You asked what we do to comply and my response is that I don't fly any alpha flag of any size in all my years and have NEVER been bothered over it. That is what I have been doing for years in terms of compliance with your question--I don't comply if in fact I need to.

As a result of this thread I will purchase an alpha flag but it will not be a meter in size but I will attempt to fly it a meter over deck.

Here is a plain English description of Florida law's:

"Many states assume that everyone knows what a dive flag looks like. I guess they figure we’re all old enough to have owned a copy of Van Halen’s album, “Divers Down.” Florida legislators are not quite so assuming, and they define “divers down flag” in clear, unambiguous, and, dare I say, poetic language. “Divers down flag” pursuant to Florida Code, “means a flag that meets the following specifications: 1. The flag must be square or rectangular. If rectangular, the length must not be less than the height, or more than 25 percent longer than the height. The flag must have a wire or other stiffener to hold it fully unfurled and extended in the absence of a wind or breeze. 2. The flag must be red with a white diagonal stripe that begins at the top staff-side of the flag and extends diagonally to the lower opposite corner. The width of the stripe must be 25 percent of the height of the flag. 3. The minimum size for any divers down flag displayed on a buoy or float towed by the diver is 12 inches by 12 inches. The minimum size for any divers down flag displayed from a vessel or structure is 20 inches by 24 inches.”

Also this:

"Alpha flag, white and blue. International meaning: The letter “A” or “diver down, keep clear.” An alpha flag must be prominently displayed on a vessel tending divers. The size of the flag, and whether lights and/or signals are also required, is determined by the size of the vessel."

Perhaps this best describes the solution so you will not have to issue yourself a citation:

"When diving from a boat of any size anywhere in the world, fly both the alpha flag and the diver-down flag and you’ll most likely be in full compliance with all laws regarding dive flags — international, federal and state.
When diving from shore in a navigable waterway, fly the diver-down flag.
Check with your local enforcement agency for dive flag laws in your state."

Perhaps this will help some people:

Dive Flag Law

And then there is this:
---------------------------------------------------------------
DIVER FLAG RULE CLARIFICATION

(as per U.S Coast Guard 1st District Special Notice to Mariners 1999)

There has been some confusion over the status of the traditional sports divers'flag because of a change to the U. S. Inland Navigation Rules concerning the use of one meter high rigid replica of the International Code Flag Alpha (a blue and white flag).


The Alpha flag is to be flown on small vessels engaged in diving operations whenever these vessels are restricted in their ability to maneuver if divers are attached to the vessel. But in sports diving, where divers are usually free swimming, the alpha flag does not have to be shown and the Coast Guard encourages the continued use of the traditional sports diver flag.

The sport diver flag is an unofficial signal that, through custom, has come to be used to protect the diver in the water. It is the responsibility of the operator of a diving vessel to determine if his crafts movements are restricted. To be most effective, the sport diver flag should be exhibited on a float in the water to mark the approximate location of the diver.

-----------------------------------------------------------

According to the above clarification from the USCG a private vessal with scuba divers whether on drift or anchor does not have to fly the alpha flag--AS I STATED ORIGINALLY and which is why I have never been bothered for it's use. SCUBA divers are NOT attached to the vessal. Unless your hookah or helmet diving or using a diving bell on Lake Powell which is not in international waters anyways you do NOT need to fly the alpha flag from your boat.

N

 

[Skull]

Well there you have it ... enjoy your diving experience and keep a good attorney on retainer...

Fly a flag like the rest of us do so you can see your boat just in case you lose your down line and ascent position. Works every time for me especially while night diving.

Fact is 75% of boaters are completely ignorant of what an Alpha flag is and what it signifies... always dive with a 6' inflatable marker just in case you need to do an open water ascent away from your boat. To me that is far more important than flying an Alpha flag ... just a thought.

TBS by all means stay in compliance whenever possible. I would never advocate being out of compliance concerning Alpha Flags ... I fly both ~ 8' above my gunwhales.

 

[Skull]

Wait a minute ...you said you didn't purchase the flag from Diversupply because it was not regulation ...you said it needed to be 1 meter square ...then you went on to explain it was most likely rectangular ...etc ... now you have decided it needs to be 1 meter above the boat.

Give it a rest and purchase the dives supply flag ...and bury this thread....already

 

[Waterskier1]

Wait a minute ...you said you didn't purchase the flag from Diversupply because it was not regulation ...you said it needed to be 1 meter square ...then you went on to explain it was most likely rectangular ...etc ... now you have decided it needs to be 1 meter above the boat.

Give it a rest and purchase the dives supply flag ...and bury this thread....already

Hummm, I never said 1 meter square, except when questioning captndale. His post is the first that mentions it, and other than quotes, the only other mention is when I 1) questioned the 1 meter square not thinking the flag is square, but more rectangular) and 2) again when I restated that the Rule says "not less than 1 meter in height".

If following this conversation is too taxing, you may simply unsubscribe and refrain from contributing to the complexity.

I will wait and see what the official ruling is, and will post what I find out, just in case there is someone out there who might want to know the rule, not just what others are doing to get around it.

Nemrod, I see where you are coming from. My intentions of asking what you do to comply was aimed more at do you make your own? Do you make a replica out of wood, plastic, metal, etc. But, I can see how you read it to ask if you really do follow the rule. Just for edification, when I posted this originally, I never had second thoughts as to IF it should be that size, or IF I should follow my state's law regarding flying it, but rather how are others complying with it given I couldn't locate an online vendor for one greater than a meter (39") in height.

No worries about tickets, I haven't dove off my boats yet. But I am hoping to this summer.