perdidochas
Contributor
I think he's saying, to fly the flags (both the Alpha and the Diver Down flags), but don't assume that anyone knows what they mean. Dive defensively, and presume the boaters are ignorant.
Alpha "Dive" Flag
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I think he's saying, to fly the flags (both the Alpha and the Diver Down flags), but don't assume that anyone knows what they mean. Dive defensively, and presume the boaters are ignorant.
OP
Where I boat, hundered of boats are moored (unmanned) all year round. Also, there is nothing in the Nav Rules (Inland or International) that require someone aboard an anchored or moored vessel.
Granted, many states and localities do have requirements regarding when and where one may anchor, but I haven't seen any of those require someone onboard.
But, that really doesn't have anything to do with the requirement for the Alpha Flag, since that is flown when a vessel is limited in it's ability to maneuver; not when at a vessel is at anchor or aground. Specifically, Rule 27, section (e) [Inland] states "Whenever the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impractible to exhibit all the lights and shapes perscribed in paragraph (d) of this Rule, the following shall instead be exhibited.... (ii) A rigid replica of the international Code flag "A" not less than 1 meter in height....
sea nmf
Contributor
I don't want to read this entire thing and I don't have the answer to your specific questions.
I did, however, make my own. I did two sides with a pocket running diagonally through the flag where I installed a dowel. There is obviously a pocket on the side as well to attach to whatever you will be flying it from.
I did, however, make my own. I did two sides with a pocket running diagonally through the flag where I installed a dowel. There is obviously a pocket on the side as well to attach to whatever you will be flying it from.
Any update Rick? Maybe they dont know as well. I keep rereading it and keep thinking it can be taken both ways. I have a feeling it must be at least one meter above the highest hard deck and be big enough for other boats to spot from a certain distance away. I keep thinking about the different dive boats I have been on and not one of them had a flag that was one meter long. All of them had rigid flags but they were all small flags.
Maybe the CG ment 72 days not hours.
Maybe the CG ment 72 days not hours.
Last edited:
OP
Any update Rick? Maybe they dont know as well. I keep rereading it and keep thinking it can be taken both ways. I have a feeling it must be at least one meter above the highest hard deck and be big enough for other boats to spot from a certain distance away. I keep thinking about the different dive boats I have been on and not one of them had a flag that was one meter long. All of them had rigid flags but they were all small flags.
Maybe the CG ment 72 days not hours.
Tom,
This is what I received Friday, after a couple follow-up phone calls
"Thank you for your question regarding Nav Rule 27. To ensure an accurate response, we have forwarded your question to a Coast Guard subject matter expert. Our goal is to respond to your inquiry as soon as possible. However, we are still researching and we will respond shortly.
Very Respectfully,
USCG Navigation Center
Navigation Information Service"
I have only been on one dive boat that flew the Alpha Flag. That was the Caribbean Explorer I, and I only saw if from a distance, and the perspective on over 100-ft boat was difficult to tell the size. It was rigid, and had a dive flag (red/white) along side. The dive boats in Coz didn't have Alpha flags, but they weren't limited in their ability to maneuver either - in fact they were following us as we drifted.
One reason that it may be taking longer is I requested a reference such as CFR, Nav Rule or COLREG Annex to what they tell me. In other words, I didn't want just another "guess" but a true reference to law. That may not currently exist.
I'll post what (when) I find out.
Here is what the shapes and flags look like in real life. This is my charter boat, Enterprise, in Lake Michigan.
Starting from the bow:
1. The ball on the forestay tells other vessels that we are at anchor. It is required anytime you are anchored except in a designated anchorage.
2. The 1 meter square alpha flag. This is a substitute for the required, "ball-diamond-ball" day shapes. I fly the alpha flag because most boaters do not know what the day shapes mean.
3. Ball-Diamond-Ball dayshapes mean "I am restricted in the ability to maneuver. I have divers down or am engaged in underwater operations. Keep well clear and at low speed." These shapes are required to be displayed by all vessels large enough to display them in all waters when engaged in diving operations.
4. American Divers Down flag. This flag pertains to the divers, not the vessel. It is required by state law in most US states.
Starting from the bow:
1. The ball on the forestay tells other vessels that we are at anchor. It is required anytime you are anchored except in a designated anchorage.
2. The 1 meter square alpha flag. This is a substitute for the required, "ball-diamond-ball" day shapes. I fly the alpha flag because most boaters do not know what the day shapes mean.
3. Ball-Diamond-Ball dayshapes mean "I am restricted in the ability to maneuver. I have divers down or am engaged in underwater operations. Keep well clear and at low speed." These shapes are required to be displayed by all vessels large enough to display them in all waters when engaged in diving operations.
4. American Divers Down flag. This flag pertains to the divers, not the vessel. It is required by state law in most US states.
Does anyone actually use the alpha flag in small, private, pleasure vessals? I have dove from and anchored my "small" vessals for years with no alpha flag with patrols and USCG all about me including Lake Powell. I always thought that in state waters where the law specifies the red diver down flag it sufficed alone. In international waters the alpha was required additionallly.
The rule I have been told concerns height of the mast above fixed structure, a bimini would not count, the flag does not need to be a meter square--I have been told this by various uniformed individuals and CG Aux as I have asked this very question as an adjunct to the required size of the divers down flag --red flag which in Florida is now I think 18X24 if flown from a boat and 14X 18 if on a towable bouy (note--check those dimensions yourself as I am pulling them off the top of my memory).
A small sub 20 foot vessal has limited room for flying flags and day signals and if privately operated as a pleasure craft I am not sure anybody will bother you as long as your flying at least the red diver down flag which is codified in various state and local laws.
The red diver flag is at least semi-understood, most rednecks would assume that alpha flag was an invitation to a beer party.
The CG is not always so professional, a while back they wanted to board me for a safety check. I answered on the radio and welcomed them aboard. The came at my small Boston Whaler at flank speed and nearly rammed me, I started my engine and gunned out of their way in reverse. I then asked them to lie off and that I would come to them, amateurs. Don't assume that just because they look official means they know what they are doing.
Good thread, thank you.
N
The rule I have been told concerns height of the mast above fixed structure, a bimini would not count, the flag does not need to be a meter square--I have been told this by various uniformed individuals and CG Aux as I have asked this very question as an adjunct to the required size of the divers down flag --red flag which in Florida is now I think 18X24 if flown from a boat and 14X 18 if on a towable bouy (note--check those dimensions yourself as I am pulling them off the top of my memory).
A small sub 20 foot vessal has limited room for flying flags and day signals and if privately operated as a pleasure craft I am not sure anybody will bother you as long as your flying at least the red diver down flag which is codified in various state and local laws.
The red diver flag is at least semi-understood, most rednecks would assume that alpha flag was an invitation to a beer party.
The CG is not always so professional, a while back they wanted to board me for a safety check. I answered on the radio and welcomed them aboard. The came at my small Boston Whaler at flank speed and nearly rammed me, I started my engine and gunned out of their way in reverse. I then asked them to lie off and that I would come to them, amateurs. Don't assume that just because they look official means they know what they are doing.
Good thread, thank you.
N
OP
Captndale: That is exactly my interpretation of the rule also, with the possible exception of "1 meter square" Alpha Flat. I don't believe that the flag is square, if you mean that your flag is 1 meter by 1 meter in size. I believe the flag is more rectangular, but I haven't found exact specification for the flat (ratios) yet.
My original reason for starting this thread was not to confirm or deny the size, but rather I was having a problem finding a source for an Alpha Flag that large.
I have decided that I will make my own flag. I'll build "stiffener pockets" into it. I plan to use pieces of old 8' VHF fiberglass antennas as the stiffeners. I have several of those laying around. Since it says "replica of" the Alpha Flag, I had also considered using "Plastic Cardboard" with vinyl colors applied to make it rigid. But the resulting size would be too big for me to practicably carry on my 20-ft ski boat.
I've learned a lot from this thread. From lots who think they know the answers to those who should know the answers but don't.
My original reason for starting this thread was not to confirm or deny the size, but rather I was having a problem finding a source for an Alpha Flag that large.
I have decided that I will make my own flag. I'll build "stiffener pockets" into it. I plan to use pieces of old 8' VHF fiberglass antennas as the stiffeners. I have several of those laying around. Since it says "replica of" the Alpha Flag, I had also considered using "Plastic Cardboard" with vinyl colors applied to make it rigid. But the resulting size would be too big for me to practicably carry on my 20-ft ski boat.
I've learned a lot from this thread. From lots who think they know the answers to those who should know the answers but don't.
OP
Well, two things in the above. Each State has it's own laws, and they are not universal across all states. As for Lake Powell, Utah's law is R651-203-4. Diver’s Flag. it says: "A square, red flag with a white diagonal stripe from one top corner to the opposite bottom corner should be used to indicate the presence of a diver below. A rigid replica of the International Code “A” flag not less than one meter in height may also be used. The operator of any vessel shall not approach within 150 feet of a posted diver’s flag, unless the vessel is part of the equipment in use by the divers." So, In Utah, the Alpha Flag is not required. I have patrolled on Lake Powell for many years. It has shared Law Enforcement (LE) with the primary Federal LE being National Parks, but other Federal Agencies including USCG have LE authority. In addition, Utah State has LE authority (Utah State Parks, and Utah State Patrol) along with three different County Sheriffs.
The size of the Diver's Flag (the Red and white flag) varies according to State. The Florida law is now different from what you remember. For dive flags, here is a helpful site. I don't guarantee that the info is up to date, but it does give the code of the law so that will help your search for up to date law. Note that he doesn't always give boat requirements, which could be in addition to those of divers in the water - the generally accepted meaning of the flag.
I have not found a single state that requires the Alpha Flag be flown that specifies a size different than from the Federal Requirements. I have checked several around me, but have not performed an exhaustive search. I think it quite reasonable to believe that the Federal Requirement (whatever it turns out to be) would be sufficient in all states since most states are simply copying the Federal Code. I know for a fact that the USCG and USCG Aux teach 1 meter in height as the size of the flag, not it's position. But then, if the USCG can't even provide an answer without going to their Subject Matter Expert (SME) how could we expect everyone else to know?
My research has revealed that most states and subordinate political subdivisions recognize and many require the use of the dive flag BY DIVERS.
The Nav Rule 27 acknowledges that small vessels can't have all the day shapes displayed, and that is why the Alpha Flag came about. Captndale doesn't need to display it, since he has all the requisite day shapes required by law already displayed. I believe he is displaying it because if you think we have problems with people understanding the red/white divers flag, much less the Alpha Flag, who would begin to understand the day shapes and light (red over white over red) that applies to larger vessels. I agree with him that I'll do whatever to convey my intentions and limitations as long as it isn't prohibited by some law.
The problem comes when we discuss boats who have divers in the water, and are limited in their ability to maneuver. Colorado requires the divers to have within 100 feet the dive flag, (or tow it such that it is) whether they are off a boat or shore diving. If they are off a boat, then the boat to display the Alpha Flag.
I am totally amazed at how this thread has evolved. And that I have only received one PM and one Post regarding my original question. I hope this will be a learning experience to all.
BTW, since I am patrolling and work with Law Enforcement routinely, I though it prudent to fully comply with the laws, where ever I boat. Kind of like setting a good example.
Skull
Contributor
Great deal on Alpha Dive Flag from Divers-Supply.com
$24.95 + TAX AND SHIPPING ...
How hard was that .
Also nobody in the USCG is going to pop you for having an Alpha or Diver Down flag out of regulation less it fits on your back window of your truck as in a sticker form.
Sounds like you are looking to be right rather than doing 10 seconds of a google search.
Nemrod is completely correct here btw, I have never been stopped by the USCG for a non regulation/ or "rigid" flag in SoCal on the water. They usually bust your chops for fire extinguishers being low or out of date Flares and life preservers to bodies ratios ...etc.
Relax ...bust out your CC and pick one up online.
$24.95 + TAX AND SHIPPING ...
How hard was that .
Also nobody in the USCG is going to pop you for having an Alpha or Diver Down flag out of regulation less it fits on your back window of your truck as in a sticker form.
Sounds like you are looking to be right rather than doing 10 seconds of a google search.
Nemrod is completely correct here btw, I have never been stopped by the USCG for a non regulation/ or "rigid" flag in SoCal on the water. They usually bust your chops for fire extinguishers being low or out of date Flares and life preservers to bodies ratios ...etc.
Relax ...bust out your CC and pick one up online.
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