Alleged illegal tanks sold by Add Helium-Heads up to any that may have purchased

[CuzzA]

From a consumer standpoint here's the way I see it.

Faber, Luxfer, Catalina made my tanks. They've been doing this for a long time. They go through the necessary steps and testing to make sure they are safe and compliant with the regulations of the United States. The consequences of cutting corners, not testing or altering markings and labels could sink their business. Aside from a bad alloy ~30 years ago from one manufacturer, which requires an extra step in continuing requalification, these manufacturers have a track record of excellent performance with millions of tanks being filled around the world for service.

Now you look at a these carbon fiber tanks... Who made them? What company? www.eurodivingzone.com??? That's what's on the label. What track record has been established? Is this a manufacturer who specializes in high pressure underwater tanks or a company who makes water softener tanks and thought they would try their hand at scuba tanks? What testing has been done? Then you see evidence of a possible altered label. WTF! I don't believe Add Helium actually altered the labels, but it does appear they were aware that they could be fakes and the customer needs to know this. Full disclosure.

I do not fault anyone selling these tanks if they are making the buyer aware of what they are getting, an altered label tank that may or may not have been tested. I also don't fault anyone for buying and filling them as long as it doesn't put someone else in harms way. If you want to fill these in your garage, knock yourself out .

 

[Wookie]

Frank.

But did you know at the time that the ceritfication was counterfeit?
Did you know the Label was invalid
Did you know the supplier was a scuba shop out of Sweden selling Womens wear?
Did you know Peter Sotis stated he did the QA
Did you know that Add Helium statement on the product was:

Did you know that Carbon Fibre is available in white? But only in China.
Do you have employees filling scuba tanks on your "boat"
Was this client and you the only for only folk on board at the time.

To honestly answer the question, yes. I knew the cylinders were not certified. I did not know that they had a counterfeit certification, only that they carried no valid certification at all. To be perfectly clear, I also fill Mk. 15 inconel and steel spheres for military clients, as well as others who may dive Mark 15's. I am perfectly aware that I was not in compliance with the law.

 

[cragfiend]

Mark,

He abandoned their use. It was a transient workaround for the rEvo being too heavy. And it worked for him when he was flying to places that didn't have rental cylinders available. Times have changed and there's no reason now to use then. The rEvo repair place in NJ was selling them too. That's all old history.

And with all respect Paul is not an authority on high pressure cylinders. Your bottles are likely fine "for a while". But in salt water? Really: Be careful. Nobody wants to see anyone get hurt. Ask yourself "why am I accepting this additional risk" and then "is it worth it". Only you can decide.

St John,
This and your previous few posts have been very informative, and clearly indicate you do have extensive knowledge. Appreciated. Just wish this had been the way you communicated earlier.

On another note, with a titanium micro rEvo, in a 3mil full suit, with an aluminum 40 bail-out AND the suspect 2L tanks, I am still negatively buoyant. Probably all the rocks in my head. Hence, anything I can do to minimize additional weight is as much a safety issue as anything else.
Cheers.
Keith

 

[cerich]

Some stuff to read and consider

PHMSA - Interpretations by Date - Interpretation #14-0064

PHMSA - Interpretations by Date - Interpretation #05-0060

PHMSA - Interpretations - Interpretation #09-0220

Now..there is stuff in there Icould cut and paste into this thread all day long.

Long story short, HP cylinders for scuba are more likely to fall under the HMR than not, in fact finding a way for them not to would be pretty difficult in the event of an event that caused a business to try and defend themselves.

 

[jseyfert3]

BTW, the reason that wrapped cylinders are discarded after five years is that you CAN NOT hydrotest them. The fiber wrapping prevents the interior (thin) metal liner from expanding at all. You can't measure permanent expansion if temporary expansion is inhibited by wrapping. And that's one reason we don't use them.

Umm, really? In the previous link, from Luxfer about how you cannot use their composite wrapped tanks underwater (excepting the one they make for SCUBA), they specifically mention hydrotesting them!

If a Luxfer Type 3 cylinder has been used in underwater service, the cylinder should be immediately removed from service and presented to an authorized retest company for a thorough visual inspection and hydrostatic test.

Granger has a FAQ on composite SCBA tanks, where they list hydrotesting dates on various tanks:

• Hoop wrapped every 3 years
• Full wrapped fiberglass and Kevlar every 3 years
• Full wrapped carbon fiber every 5 years

All have 15 year service life, so that's 4 required hydrotests through the life of the hoop, fiberglass and Kevlar tanks and two required hydrotests for the carbon tanks. It also mentions a required visual inspection that is required when they hydro is done but specifically says they must be hydrotested on a regular basis.

Perhaps you didn't hydrotest them because you didn't want to deal with them, but I think the two links about clearly state that you can and indeed are required to hydrotest composite wrapped tanks.

 

[cerich]

To honestly answer the question, yes. I knew the cylinders were not certified. I did not know that they had a counterfeit certification, only that they carried no valid certification at all. To be perfectly clear, I also fill Mk. 15 inconel and steel spheres for military clients, as well as others who may dive Mark 15's. I am perfectly aware that I was not in compliance with the law.

Q4. Do the HMR apply to a cylinder that is carried by a private individual on a commercial bus or boat licensed to carry passengers?

A4. Yes. Passengers and crew members traveling on a commercial bus or vessel are “in commerce” and are fully subject to the HMR.


PHMSA - Interpretations by Date - Interpretation #05-0060

 

[cerich]

I like this little snippet...
(2) the scuba instructor who transports scuba tanks for use by his (paying) students as part of their instruction is subject to the HMR;

PHMSA - Interpretations - Interpretation #09-0220

interesting and have virtually never seen DOT regs complied with with regards to vehicle markings when doing so.

 

[St John the Diver]

Umm, really? In the previous link, from Luxfer about how you cannot use their composite wrapped tanks underwater (excepting the one they make for SCUBA), they specifically mention hydrotesting them!


Granger has a FAQ on composite SCBA tanks, where they list hydrotesting dates on various tanks:

• Hoop wrapped every 3 years
• Full wrapped fiberglass and Kevlar every 3 years
• Full wrapped carbon fiber every 5 years

All have 15 year service life, so that's 4 required hydrotests through the life of the hoop, fiberglass and Kevlar tanks and two required hydrotests for the carbon tanks. It also mentions a required visual inspection that is required when they hydro is done but specifically says they must be hydrotested on a regular basis.

Perhaps you didn't hydrotest them because you didn't want to deal with them, but I think the two links about clearly state that you can and indeed are required to hydrotest composite wrapped tanks.

I stand corrected. I haven't run a hydro facility in the last 25 years. Fiber wrapped tanks were a novelty then, and I'm not surprised the regs have changed. Duly noted, thanks.

The balance of the information on plastic versus elastic is just basic materials science.

Thanks again.

 

[MarkFlory]

Mark,

He abandoned their use. It was a transient workaround for the rEvo being too heavy. And it worked for him when he was flying to places that didn't have rental cylinders available. Times have changed and there's no reason now to use then. The rEvo repair place in NJ was selling them too. That's all old history.

And with all respect Paul is not an authority on high pressure cylinders. Your bottles are likely fine "for a while". But in salt water? Really: Be careful. Nobody wants to see anyone get hurt. Ask yourself "why am I accepting this additional risk" and then "is it worth it". Only you can decide.

So with this information it is obvious AH was not the company that designed and brought these tanks to the market, the "repair place in NJ" is the rEvo factory authorized service center. AH is just just the most successful company selling them. That explains the haters going after them.

 

[cerich]

So with this information it is obvious AH was not the company that designed and brought these tanks to the market, the "repair place in NJ" is the rEvo factory authorized service center. AH is just just the most successful company selling them. That explains the haters going after them.

actually I was not aware of that either. Are they still selling them?