All these dive accidents are making me wonder....

[Some X Dry]

Someone has to be the one snatched by the gator at the edge of the river to keep the rest of the herd the wiser. Complacency, ignorance and lack of common sense are not new to the animal kingdom. Our disadvantage is we are deceived by our self awareness and disregard the rules of nature at our own peril. It makes up for the fact that our week get to continue to breed.

 

[Max Speed]

In my rather short time of diving I have witnessed more than one "accident waiting to happen". All the way from a "Divemaster" candidate with two students asking my instructor/dive buddy how to read his gauge to 80 year old men who could barely carry his equipment or walk onto the boat without assistance and actually died 3 months prior and was revived, blaming it on his gear wanting to try new gear on a dive 130' plus.

At least "Divemaster" wasn't too proud to ask a question.


"80 year old dude" should be a role model for all of us. Had trouble, shrugged it off, made a change in gear to compensate, climbed back into the Arena. A whole lot better than "Ooh I'm scared, I'll just sit in my easy chair until I, uh, die".

 

[Ozwald]

At least "Divemaster" wasn't too proud to ask a question.


"80 year old dude" should be a role model for all of us. Had trouble, shrugged it off, made a change in gear to compensate, climbed back into the Arena. A whole lot better than "Ooh I'm scared, I'll just sit in my easy chair until I, uh, die".

Not really the point I was getting at. Who is the Divemaster going to wind up teaching is my concern. At this stage of his training should he be asking these types of questions? As for the 80 year old fellow.....a role model? Are you serious? I'm not saying that the elderly shouldn't dive but what I am saying is that there comes a time when physical and mental capacities are what they are! What if that fellow winds up in a perilous situation and someone needs to rescue him and both meet an unfortunate end?

As far as his gear goes from what I understand, and I don't know much about rebreather's, is that whatever he did caused whatever he was breathing to be toxic from the get go. Turn on the oxygen possibly? A sign of senility I'm not sure but a sign nevertheless.

 

[Sabanist]

Common sence cannot be teached. It must be part of you.
I started my OWD course in April 2007. The course was composed of 16 theoretical sessions and 16 pool sessions + 1 pool session more per week to practice. After all this, the theoretical exam and the pool exam. After this, the OW dives to certify.
OW dives were in October 2007. When we reached October we all were more than comfortable and wishing to enter the water.
All this under SSI.
I cannot understand how can someone take a dive course that only involves 2 days and 2 pool sessions, no matter how long those sessions are.
Besides how can someone believe that an AOWD course can be made before OWD certification ? The same with Nitrox. If someone tells me that I can take all those 3 courses in one shot and certify everything in the same dive excursion, he surely is cheating me.
All this is a warranty to failure.

Quoting Randy Quaid in Caddyshack II: When asked how he expected to play with only 3 clubs, "how many do you need?"

 

[Thalassamania]

Although I do believe the OW training provided now days (and this is a generalization, there are some - perhaps many very good instructors, but there are others too) is too watered down, or too short of duration, there are other issues at hand. The thing is, there are numerous categories for how events can happen:

equipment issues
health issues
bad choices
bad luck

There are subsets of these too. I'm not sure, despite all the training, how much of these won't still happen..... Not sure how you can eliminate some or any of these.

I do believe that the number of incidents as a ratio to the number of dives made is very low, but as visitors to the underwater world, we are less than suited for survival. When things go wrong, there is a higher chance of a bad outcome.

Because of SB having an accidents forum to serve as an awareness and possible "education" forum, we are hearing about these more than would commonly happen from normal media sources, so the appearance of lots going wrong lately isn't necessarily accurate.

It is quite possible to be prepared for "bad luck" and to significantly raise the level of "bad luck" that would be required to be more than a mere annoyance.

Dive shops breed their own self-regulating and self-reinforcing culture. Back when I lived in Winnipeg there was only one dive shop around. The owner oozed and exuded "macho." I can't say whether or not he was a good instructor, but I decided that I didn't trust him as a businessman.

Also, as Bob mentioned, many shops want to keep on selling training (which is good) and encourage most of their divers to train to be an instructor (which is perhaps not so good). IMHO training with only one group of people or one shop breeds a type of nepotism and lack of breadth of experience.

Sticking with one operation is either the worst or the best possible thing that a new diver can do, the problem is that very few new divers are equipped to judge which.

Everything we do in life is a gamble. Whether it being getting in our car to go to work or getting on a plane to our favorite dive destination. Statistics will support that the ratio of the number of dives to the number accidents is far less that the number of cars to the number of accidents. Most diving accidents are either health or poor judgement related. Poor judgement is easily seen everytime I get on the interstate to drive to work! You just can't fix stupid!!

Since we have no idea of how many dives are actually made statistical claims of this sort are rather meaningless. There are about ten deaths for every 100,000 population (driving), what that would mean is that for every 100 diving deaths there would need to be a diving population of a million, which may be about right. It looks to me like diving and motoring run about neck and neck in terms of hazard.

Common sence cannot be teached. It must be part of you.
I started my OWD course in April 2007. The course was composed of 16 theoretical sessions and 16 pool sessions + 1 pool session more per week to practice. After all this, the theoretical exam and the pool exam. After this, the OW dives to certify.
OW dives were in October 2007. When we reached October we all were more than comfortable and wishing to enter the water.
All this under SSI.
I cannot understand how can someone take a dive course that only involves 2 days and 2 pool sessions, no matter how long those sessions are.
Besides how can someone believe that an AOWD course can be made before OWD certification ? The same with Nitrox. If someone tells me that I can take all those 3 courses in one shot and certify everything in the same dive excursion, he surely is cheating me.
All this is a warranty to failure.

Yes indeed. Where did you train? Give your shop and instructor(s) a plug, they deserve it. I'll you'll consider it, however, when I say that common sense can, indeed, be taught, especially when it comes to underwater, where instinct says to claw for the surface.

 

[Brewone0to]

Not really the point I was getting at. Who is the Divemaster going to wind up teaching is my concern. At this stage of his training should he be asking these types of questions? As for the 80 year old fellow.....a role model? Are you serious? I'm not saying that the elderly shouldn't dive but what I am saying is that there comes a time when physical and mental capacities are what they are! What if that fellow winds up in a perilous situation and someone needs to rescue him and both meet an unfortunate end?

As far as his gear goes from what I understand, and I don't know much about rebreather's, is that whatever he did caused whatever he was breathing to be toxic from the get go. Turn on the oxygen possibly? A sign of senility I'm not sure but a sign nevertheless.

I am not a RB diver either,. But from what I understand about them, he more than likely flooded his gas loop or allowed water to enter the breathing loop. it causes a reaction with the CO2 absorbent.
BTW, I'll take a guy like this to the scared one any day.
And if he requires rescue, I would gladly be there.
I would help any fellow diver, whether they are my buddy or not.
It's just that the scared diver worries me more than the determined one.

 

[CamG]

Greetings Ozwald common sense is lost on far to many these days above and below water.
Sad but true but when talking scuba it gets a little more complicated than just the lack of or absence of good judgement.
It is a misnomer to have one and not the other but we all have witnessed the issues that you describe.
Most newly trained divers actually have better judgement than some of the more seasoned or (so called) experienced divers.

Risk analysis is up to the diver and we learn that we should not exceed our training and or comfort levels when we are planning our dives.
We can not absolve that responsibility from the individual diver.
Most dive fatalities are direct result of diver error, this is not a new revelation.
We study these accidents to help us to train for and or manage the risk of these issues reoccurring.
Why have accidents happened in clusters?
Who knows but we will study the accidents and try to prevent further fatalities.
Factual accident reports that leave out conjecture are of great value to those who research and study what to avoid.

Safe diving practices are in place to keep us safe, no mystery there.
It is not simply suggestions or amusing facts but meant to keep us from making bad decisions based on poor judgement.
Bottom line it is up to the individual certified diver to plan and execute his or her dive.
Please exercise good judgement when planning and executing your dives and use conservatism to keep you safe.
That is my plea.

Safe diving all,

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

 

[fnfalman]

What gives the OP the idea that diving accidents and fatalities are all or even most statistics come from newbies or ill-trained divers?

There are plenty of accidents and fatalities that were and are incurred by highly trained, highly experienced divers.

 

[Nemrod]

First, forgive me because I am of little experience BUT....

I keep reading about all these dive accidents which has me thinking that perhaps any and all certifications should be accompanied by a "common sense" lesson right from the get go.

Prior to my getting into the sport of scuba I joined this board. I read about all of the different posts on dive preparedness and equipment malfunctions, different exposure protection and all of the different scenarios that divers with a lot of experience, some not, have faced in different environments. With all of that information I have come realize what my comfort levels are. Prior to my partaking in my certifications i interviewed the person who would be instructing me and I made it quite clear how my world waggles.

Prior to any diving I run through the scenario's in my head over and over. If at any time I feel "hey, somethings a little wonky or I'm not as comfy as i'd like to be"...that's it, thumbs up!

Now while I'm not so sure that this doesn't happen but reading about all of these incidents it has me wondering if common sense is leaving the room because someone has been to 100 feet and feel that they are invincible.

In my rather short time of diving I have witnessed more than one "accident waiting to happen". All the way from a "Divemaster" candidate with two students asking my instructor/dive buddy how to read his gauge to 80 year old men who could barely carry his equipment or walk onto the boat without assistance and actually died 3 months prior and was revived, blaming it on his gear wanting to try new gear on a dive 130' plus.

This to me screams "no common sense".

I know accidents are going to happen but I firmly believe that most of the time it's diver error or bad judgement. Also, the "macho factor". Is it hammered into a diving student that it's okay to call a dive or to not do the dive because you are unsure? I don't think so because it wasn't in my original OW cert done up here in Canada. It was however while going through my different certs in The Keys.

I know my limits and what I am capable of and I strictly adhere to those limits. I check my equipment 2 or 3 times before taking a plunge and again before hitting 30 feet. I'm always checking my gauges and monitoring my air at least every minute or two. Too much perhaps but it makes me comfortable.

Perhaps before OW any certifying agencies course should be "the common sense approach to diving safely".

I really do hope I haven't offended anyone and this post is in no way intended to criticize those that have had the unfortunate happen, but there just seems to be a lot of unnecessary loss of life and close calls happening.

Hmmm, well, safety is way overrated or put another way, the only way to be assured of dying in your sleep in your bed is to never get out of it.

N

 

[Nemrod]

...and when I'm 80 I want a buddy check and to be pushed into Red Sea with my doubles.

Real freedom is the freedom to make risky choices... don't get me started.

Now we are talking, you are my kinda diver, die with your boots on or fins or whatever. Give it heXX in the meantime. Full throttle, relax and rest in the grave, there will be plenty of time for that.

N