All these dive accidents are making me wonder....

[MXGratefulDiver]

As I said from the start I do not study the Incident and Accident thread, this is just what I have picked up from the Northeast and Southeast threads that I do look at as these are the areas I am interested in diving. The examples are ones you brought up, I am not spreading anything. My responses came from looking at each example for about 30 seconds to see what was left out of your examples, that seems to be where the spreading came in. What you call my prejudices come from my time as a commercial diver. I look at the types of dives tech divers are making and figure out how much I would have charged someone to make that dive and all the support personal and additional equipment that would be required and it comes to thousands of dollars per dive and that is 1980s dollars, I have no idea how much more they would charge today. My opinion is that these types of dives are reckless and the industry for the most part seems to be pushing more people toward this type of diving. This is good for selling more training and equipment but is it the right thing to do?

Well, my answer to that last question would be that if someone is properly trained, and properly prepared, then there's nothing reckless about it. The tech divers I dive with are better skilled, better educated, and put more thought into what they're doing than any other divers I know. So I wouldn't use the term "reckless" to describe them at all.

It seems to me that you don't understand what tech diving is, or what it involves ... or how someone even goes about planning, preparing for, and executing such dives. And it certainly has no comparison to commercial diving. For many ... probably most ... of the overhead dives I do, a commercial diver would not be adequately equipped, trained, or motivated to even attempt them. It's like comparing apples to orangutangs ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[finbob]

How do you know when you are "ready" ..

- when taking a reg out of your mouth and replacing it with a different reg isn't a big deal
- when removing and replacing your mask isn't something you dread
- when you can ascend while sharing air, maintain a controlled ascent rate, and stop when you want to
- when you can stop and maintain your buoyancy without finning
- when you can descend without crashing into the bottom and consistently hold your safety stop on the ascent

... then you are (minimally) "ready" to progress from OW to whatever next class you should choose ... these are all skills you supposedly "mastered" in your OW class ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, first thank you for your reply. I needed to be reassured that you are in touch with new/novice divers.
As I do consider myself one.

In light of your reply, would you now consider modifying the word "mastered":

"... then you are (minimally) "ready" to progress from OW to whatever next class you should choose ...
these are all skills you supposedly "mastered" in your OW class ...


Thank you for your consideration.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob, first thank you for your reply. I needed to be reassured that you are in touch with new/novice divers.
As I do consider myself one.

In light of your reply, would you now consider modifying the word "mastered":

"... then you are (minimally) "ready" to progress from OW to whatever next class you should choose ...
these are all skills you supposedly "mastered" in your OW class ...


Thank you for your consideration.

Well, I would ... except that it's not my word. "Mastered" is actually the word you will find used in the standards manual for the agencies that describe these skills as a requirement for their classes.

Of course, that boils down to what the meaning of "mastered" is ... which in practice seems to depend on the instructor teaching the class ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Rich Keller]

Well, my answer to that last question would be that if someone is properly trained, and properly prepared, then there's nothing reckless about it. The tech divers I dive with are better skilled, better educated, and put more thought into what they're doing than any other divers I know. So I wouldn't use the term "reckless" to describe them at all.

It seems to me that you don't understand what tech diving is, or what it involves ... or how someone even goes about planning, preparing for, and executing such dives. And it certainly has no comparison to commercial diving. For many ... probably most ... of the overhead dives I do, a commercial diver would not be adequately equipped, trained, or motivated to even attempt them. It's like comparing apples to orangutangs ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

A commercial diver would be equipped with two sources of air from the surface, communications and carrying as much air to bailout as you are making you whole dive with. There would be another diver in the water at the mouth of the cave, equipped the same way, acting as a tender and safety diver if need. There would be another stand by diver on the surface and three more tenders. There would be at least two compressors and HP storage bottles backing that up if needed. Depending on the actual details of the dive there might also be a chamber on site. Not every cave dive would require all this but that should give you a general idea of equipment that could be used. Not adequate? As for training you are kidding yourself if you think you know more and are better motivated then the average commercial diver. You may know a lot about one type of diving but the commercial diver must deal with all types. Motivation is simple it comes from the cash, you weigh the risk and the cash. The smartest divers I know are the ones who could look at that and know when to walk away from the cash.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

A commercial diver would be equipped with two sources of air from the surface, communications and carrying as much air to bailout as you are making you whole dive with. There would be another diver in the water at the mouth of the cave, equipped the same way, acting as a tender and safety diver if need. There would be another stand by diver on the surface and three more tenders. There would be at least two compressors and HP storage bottles backing that up if needed. Depending on the actual details of the dive there might also be a chamber on site. Not every cave dive would require all this but that should give you a general idea of equipment that could be used. Not adequate? As for training you are kidding yourself if you think you know more and are better motivated then the average commercial diver. You may know a lot about one type of diving but the commercial diver must deal with all types. Motivation is simple it comes from the cash, you weigh the risk and the cash. The smartest divers I know are the ones who could look at that and know when to walk away from the cash.

You are making comparisons that don't exist ... which is what I mean by apples and orangutans. Trying to define who is "smarter" or "better equipped" or "better trained" is pointless ... you are trained, equipped, and motivated by very different things, and for very different reasons.

I don't dive for cash ... that's not my motivation. Therefore it doesn't at all come into my risk analysis. I don't have to satisfy OSHA regulations, or company policies ... and I don't carry an umbilical ... therefore my safety procedures are going to be completely different from yours. I dive in environments you would have no reason to consider diving in ... and vice versa.

You are making comparisons where none exist ... and attempting to establish yourself as somehow better trained in an environment that, frankly, you weren't trained to dive in ... at all.

Are you seriously trying to tell me you've been a half-mile back inside a cave ... through restrictions ... in commercial diving gear? Using surface supplied air? Or inside a wreck, making your way through multiple decks and hatchways?

I don't believe it.

Quit trying to establish yourself as somehow superior to the properly trained tech diver who goes into overheads for recreational purposes ... those missions are so completely different that you cannot even make those comparisons.

Commercial diving is a completely different discipline than recreational diving. About the only thing they have in common is that they both happen underwater.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Cave Diver]

A commercial diver would be equipped with two sources of air from the surface, communications and carrying as much air to bailout as you are making you whole dive with. There would be another diver in the water at the mouth of the cave, equipped the same way, acting as a tender and safety diver if need. There would be another stand by diver on the surface and three more tenders. There would be at least two compressors and HP storage bottles backing that up if needed. Depending on the actual details of the dive there might also be a chamber on site. Not every cave dive would require all this but that should give you a general idea of equipment that could be used.

Well that would certainly make cave diving safer. Most people wouldn't be able to get far enough to get into any kind of real trouble diving this way.

 

[Rich Keller]

I do not claim to know it all but I do know everything about a dive I am asked to make or I walk away. The point I am trying to make is about safety. I said I thought what you were doing was reckless before I knew you were going a half mile into a cave. That seems more like suicidal but thats just my opinion and the reason I would never make a dive like that. Good luck to you.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I do not claim to know it all but I do know everything about a dive I am asked to make or I walk away. The point I am trying to make is about safety. I said I thought what you were doing was reckless before I knew you were going a half mile into a cave. That seems more like suicidal but thats just my opinion and the reason I would never make a dive like that. Good luck to you.

For you it would be suicidal ... because you lack the training to do it safely. For many on this board, that's a routine dive. For some, that's just the beginning of a routine dive. None of those folks are suicidal ... they've just trained and equipped themselves to do those sorts of dives.

The difference between suicidal and safe boils down to understanding what you're getting into, and making the appropriate preparations to deal with the risks involved. Just as you prepare for the types of dives you're doing ... and just as you make the decision whether or not the risks involved are worth the rewards ... so do we.

There are dives you do that would be suicidal for me ... and vice versa.

And that was my point ... your knowledge, training, equipment and experience would not serve you well for diving inside wrecks or caves ... you're simply not trained for that sort of diving. Therefore you are not qualified to judge how well or poorly someone who is trained in those environments is prepared for that kind of diving ... just as we are not qualified to judge how well or poorly you are prepared for the dives that you do.

Apples and orangutans ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Crush]

well that would certainly make cave diving safer. Most people wouldn't be able to get far enough to get into any kind of real trouble diving this way.

lmao!

 

[Ozwald]

Wow....Bob you are awesome! But man did this go in a different direction than I had intended!