AI Computer vs SPG, or both?

[ScubaInChicago]

......And I haven't heard of any entanglement due to transmitter but I could be wrong................

I'm not sure how much experience you have running line, in current, flow, or while task loaded, but I will tell you the line is evil, evil, evil and literally wants to KILL YOU. Anything extra that isn't needed for a challenging dive should be left topside.....For a recreational dive, no doubt you should be safe with it, it's just not absolutely needed, nor DIR.

 

[Anti-Hero]

Shellback, it is not that you follow what works. I was more interested in why's of it.

I was raised not to take "because" (without any followup explanation) as an answer. Hence asking for more explanations.

TSandM answered some for example and I am grateful.

I get it you don't seem to dive with non-DIR people but statistically there are probably more divers with transmitters than there are DIR divers. (And I haven't heard of any entanglement due to transmitter but I could be wrong.)

Too bad that a lot of context is lost in writing so things get conveyed wrong probably from both sides of this conversation.

You don't need a transmitter for "data." Part of DIR is using your brain. If you really want to know your consumption rates, at each depth note your starting pressure and end pressure and the amount of time at each depth.

Then on your surface interval use those numbers to extrapolate your data. It's good practice, and it will give you something to do before your next dive.

 

[Guy Alcala]

Just checked the instruction book on the Galileo, in Gauge mode, Stop Watch feature is available...

It's available in computer mode too, all the time in the 'Full' display (top center box), and you can call the data up in the 'Classic' display by pressing the 'More' button a few times (cycling through the alternate info in the bottom left box). In computer mode, every time you press the 'Book' button you reset the stopwatch.

This is the DIR forum. Those of us in here have varying degrees of interest in DIR, and if someone chooses to dive a 100% DIR team, that's their right to do. We all do this for fun, and I'm a pretty firm believer that a person should do whatever they feel is the most safe way to do things.

I really wish mods would remove the non DIR posts from this forum as of recent however. There's outside forums on this board to discuss non DIR tech and recreational ideas.

Actually, this is precisely the place to discuss/debate DIR techniques without being limited to them. Quoting from the forum 'sticky':

"Just a few guidelines...
1) No trolling! This is not the place for agency bashing! This is especially not a place for bashing DIR divers. Refer to Notice: the DIR forum is a No Trolling Zone for any questions about what constitutes a troll.
2) This forum is for a free exchange of ideas concerning DIR, but it is NOT intended to limit any mention of DIR to only this forum. There are many things pertaining to DIR that will be discussed in other forums as well.
3) All the rules of the board still apply here. You don't get to harrass or call people names. Civility should rule.
4) Most of all, have fun and learn something at the same time. Read our Mission statement and TOS for clarification.
5) This forum is NOT intended to replace or reduce the need for training with a qualified instructor. You might get more out of this forum if you have at least completed a DIR-f course.
6) The answers in this forum are member's best attempts to answer questions within, and according the DIR diving philosophy. If you wish to give a non-DIR answer, please do not post it in this forum. If you do not wish your question to be limited to DIR answer, please ask it in another applicable forum."


And then there's this, from the DIR Practitioner's forum sticky:

"This is a forum for those divers who practice the DIR style of diving to discuss DIR procedures, gear configurations and various other issues important to a DIR diver. The intent of this forum is to only provide DIR solutions to the questions asked.

In order to post to this forum, you must submit a join request. All Scubaboard users have the ability to view DIR Practioner Zone posts. However, permission to post to this forum is only granted to individuals with DIR training or equivalent experience. If you have general questions about DIR, these can be asked in the regular DIR forum which is open to posting by all users.

While the discussion of acknowledged variances in DIR practices is permitted, any non-DIR solutions provided will be moderated by the DIR Group Leaders. Continued attempts to provide non-DIR solutions will result in the removal of the offending user from this forum.

If you do not wish your question to be limited to DIR answer, please ask it in another applicable forum such as Technical Diving Specialties. If you want your question to have the DIR solution debated and/or compared to other dive philosophies, ask it in the general DIR forum or another applicable forum."


Clearly, the DIR Practioner's forum is not the right place to ask Iztok's question, and he didn't ask it there. The sticky specifically points to _this forum_ as the place to get the answers which Iztok is seeking (and is why I asked similar questions here a month or so ago, for the same reason). If the mods don't wish to have such questions posed here, then they should change the relevant stickies.

Guy

 

[TSandM]

As I said, Iztok, each piece of gear in the DIR configuration is scrutinized with a few questions in mind: What advantage does this bring to the diver and team? What disadvantages does it bring? Does it scale up to multiple bottle diving? And sometimes also, is the expense worth the benefit, or would money be better spent on something else?

Obviously, some of the answers are going to be biased according to the priorities of the people making the decisions. The GUE training council, which I think is a reasonable group of people to describe as arbiters of at least one type of DIR diving, does not value the ability to download gas consumption out of a computer, and they DO value a simple, streamlined and universal system. Thus the decision against transmitters. They don't even like the AI computers the transmitters send their data to

 

[mikeguerrero]

Iztok,

Diving is like the movie theaters, you purchase a said ticket that has value at a set time and for that movie. If you arrive with a different time or different ticket, you are not permitted to enter.

If you comply to those simple standards you can watch the said movie with all other 100 individuals that have also complied.

There is no room for arguing and trying to get into the movie with a different ticket, you are going to disrupt the audience and be miserable yourself when you cannot be accepted.

Now back to diving:

I only do OW diving and the majority of my diving friends are non-DIR divers, I still go over all my gear with them and dive my transmitter for data.

I am yet to arrive on a boat or a beach site that my team asks me to remove my transmitter.

If it does come and it is just a matter of time, guess what, in my vehicle I have extra transmitters for everyone, JUST KIDDEN....

I have a wrench, and I will remove the transmitter and plug the hole... Like my movie analogy, if I want to watch a DIR movie with my DIR friends, then I will pay the ticket to enjoy a really fun movie with them...

MG

 

[rjack321]

Iztok,
I had 6 cylinders different cylinders on me yesterday.
Doubles
bottom stage
EAN50 deco gas
100% deco gas
argon for suit inflation

I never checked the spg on my doubles. Why not? Because I checked my bottom stage spg and my consumption was tracking with my assumptions so after I switched off of the bottom stage I didn't need to check my backgas for the short remaining time we were on the bottom. Later on ascent I switched to EAN50 for deco and only breathed the backgas a total of ~8 more minutes at backgas breaks. Then on O2 the AI again would not have been useful. Did I check it up here? Yes although I didn't really have to it was within 100psi of expectations.

There's no way I could have used a AI on this dive. It also doesn't work for cave dives where it has no idea how far you have to travel horizontally and at what depths to exit.

The reason they are less than ideal on recreational dives is because they end up being a crutch to knowing your consumption at depth. Thus you don't build the capacity to know how much gas you have to work with, even when that gas is stored in different bottles. You can dive with one recreationally, its not that big a deal. They just clutter your mind with less than useful information for deco or cave dives.

 

[Guy Alcala]

Iztok,
I had 6 cylinders different cylinders on me yesterday.
Doubles
bottom stage
EAN50 deco gas
100% deco gas
argon for suit inflation

I never checked the spg on my doubles. Why not? Because I checked my bottom stage spg and my consumption was tracking with my assumptions so after I switched off of the bottom stage I didn't need to check my backgas for the short remaining time we were on the bottom. Later on ascent I switched to EAN50 for deco and only breathed the backgas a total of ~8 more minutes at backgas breaks. Then on O2 the AI again would not have been useful. Did I check it up here? Yes although I didn't really have to it was within 100psi of expectations.

There's no way I could have used a AI on this dive. It also doesn't work for cave dives where it has no idea how far you have to travel horizontally and at what depths to exit.

The reason they are less than ideal on recreational dives is because they end up being a crutch to knowing your consumption at depth. Thus you don't build the capacity to know how much gas you have to work with, even when that gas is stored in different bottles. You can dive with one recreationally, its not that big a deal. They just clutter your mind with less than useful information for deco or cave dives.

ISTM you're assuming that the RBT calculation is one of, if not the primary reason why people would want an AI computer. Some no doubt do so, but for me personally the primary justification for having one is that it puts all the info in one easily viewable, instantly accessible place. Sure, I've still got the SPG for back-up, but if wrist-mounted gauges make sense for everything else, they make just as much sense for tank pressure. I recently tried out clipping the SPG off on the left shoulder D-ring, as discussed in the Hogarthian forum, and that pretty much eliminates any need for an hoseless AI computer bar the data logging (I admit to being a data geek, but my current data logging involves use of a wrist slate). Having tank pressure data on your wrist instead of your hip doesn't mean that you are de facto cruising with your brain in neutral, unless that's the kind of diver you are/wish to be. Anyone who's taken the time to learn much about DIR is unlikely to fall into that category.

You certainly could have used AI transmitters for your tanks, but I'd agree that it wasn't really necessary in this case, as presumably you could read your stage SPG easily. The question, ISTM is this: GUE came out of caves, and their entire philosophy is based around a configuration optimized for that. But, for those of us who don't have caves within 1,500 miles of us and/or have little interest in cave diving, why would I wish to optimize my gear for that extreme environment, when it's unlikely I'll ever do those kind of dives?

I mean, when I set out to stroll up a local hill on a warm summer evening, I don't feel the need to use the same clothing/equipment/techniques that I'd take for a mid-winter, mixed technical climb at altitude - it would be ridiculous. Yet GUE seems to think that we all aspire to be cave divers, and that cave diving constitutes the majority of the DIR diving that's done. That's certainly not the case with our local DIR contingent, even though some of them are experienced cave divers. But the dives done in our area are (with a couple of minor exceptions) open water, rec/tec non-penetration dives, because that's all that's available. Back gas is the bottom gas, not stages, with maybe one or even two deco bottles.

In that scenario an AI gauge (or the SPG clipped off on the shoulder/run along the LPI hose) is certainly more convenient, and presents a minor additional entanglement risk in the former case; none in the latter, and since it's right in front of you any entanglement should be easier to clear. None of this implies that you don't need to know how to clip/unclip it or that you shouldn't have an in your head running calculation of gas usage.

Guy

 

[TSandM]

Guy, the DIR configuration isn't just optimized for cave. But I will admit that it is optimized for some type of technical diving. The people who teach it believe that it is to the advantage of the student to begin with a set of equipment and procedures that won't ever have to undergo any major changes, no matter what kind of diving the person decides to do over their lifetime. And the system works to do exactly that. It's a good, efficient system for recreational diving, and makes the transition to technical or overhead diving seamless . . . which may be part of the reason why you see so many people who adopt the system get that kind of training. Or maybe the system just appeals to people who have already made that decision, I don't know.

But the DIR system is what it is; arguing against it is really rather useless. You are free to adopt it or not, or even to adopt parts of it, although it's important to realize that some of the prescriptions are interdependent, and may not work well in isolation. I'm sure there are lots of people out there like my husband, who have learned things from some kind of DIR training, but have chosen not to follow the "rules" to the letter. I would guess most of them feel they are better off for having had the exposure and the training they got, anyway.

 

[LiteHedded]

if you want to use an AI computer, do it.
is it DIR? no.

 

[Guy Alcala]

Guy, the DIR configuration isn't just optimized for cave. But I will admit that it is optimized for some type of technical diving. The people who teach it believe that it is to the advantage of the student to begin with a set of equipment and procedures that won't ever have to undergo any major changes, no matter what kind of diving the person decides to do over their lifetime. And the system works to do exactly that. It's a good, efficient system for recreational diving, and makes the transition to technical or overhead diving seamless . . . which may be part of the reason why you see so many people who adopt the system get that kind of training. Or maybe the system just appeals to people who have already made that decision, I don't know.

But the DIR system is what it is; arguing against it is really rather useless. You are free to adopt it or not, or even to adopt parts of it, although it's important to realize that some of the prescriptions are interdependent, and may not work well in isolation. I'm sure there are lots of people out there like my husband, who have learned things from some kind of DIR training, but have chosen not to follow the "rules" to the letter. I would guess most of them feel they are better off for having had the exposure and the training they got, anyway.

I suspect I'll be like Peter; while I will adopt those aspects of DIR that make sense to me, will take some of the training because I think it's high quality, and will when necessary configure my gear appropriately when diving with DIR divers, I won't do something outside of that just because it's DIR; it also has to pass my own logical analysis. In the case of wireless AI, I find the DIR arguments against it weak for the diving I actually do (as opposed to some of the diving I hope someday to do).

Of course, since I don't have the money for an AI computer now in any case it's a moot point, but I wanted to give Iztok a different perspective since he's struggling with the same issues I have. He wants to know the why not just the what, and then decide if it passes his personal smell test. Which is what any thinking diver should do.

Guy