Agency bashing... what is it and why we don't allow it.

[lowwall]

Here we go. I personally like to ease open water students to scuba by first getting them to do skin diving skills, so they first get accustomed to fins/finning, mask, snorkel, and equalizing. But per PADI standards, this can be done starting in CW2 or later. Not really subpar as suboptimal. The way to get around this is to give a "free" skin diving course after the swim/float tests. But to have to jump through any hoops is just silly.

I'd actually love for someone to explain to me logically why this limitation is in place.

It's in there because PADI was the first agency to offer OW training that began with students in dive gear. This was a major marketing advantage and something they still push even though all the other for profit agencies eventually copied them. They made it a requirement to keep the instructors who thought it was a stupid idea in line.

Here's how PADI puts it: PADI Through the Decades: The 1980s

In 1981, PADI became the first scuba program to have new divers use scuba gear during their first confined water/pool dives. At the time it was considered bizarre to start divers with scuba rather than freediving. Now it has become an industry standard, and the “Dive Today” approach has continued to prove itself.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

It's in there because PADI was the first agency to offer OW training that began with students in dive gear. This was a major marketing advantage and something they still push even though all the other for profit agencies eventually copied them. They made it a requirement to keep the instructors who thought it was a stupid idea in line.

Here's how PADI puts it: PADI Through the Decades: The 1980s

In 1981, PADI became the first scuba program to have new divers use scuba gear during their first confined water/pool dives. At the time it was considered bizarre to start divers with scuba rather than freediving. Now it has become an industry standard, and the “Dive Today” approach has continued to prove itself.

Starting students with freediving skills does not preclude going to scuba in the first confined water session. The reason why this is so important is to get students acclimated to being underwater and to avoid placing students on their knees.

No major agency has copied PADI on this. Please cite which ones specify that instructors cannot do freediving skills at the start of the first confined water session before going to scuba.

Do you actually teach neutral buoyancy/trim from the start of each of your open water classes? Have you ever had any nervous students? If so, how did you deal with that in order to not place them on their knees?

So unless you have a way to ensure that students can be neutrally buoyant and trim at the start of CW1, it is a stupid requirement.

 

[lowwall]

Starting students with freediving skills does not preclude going to scuba in the first confined water session. The reason why this is so important is to get students acclimated to being underwater and to avoid placing students on their knees.

No major agency has copied PADI on this. Please cite which ones specify that instructors cannot do freediving skills at the start of the first confined water session before going to scuba.

Do you actually teach neutral buoyancy/trim from the start of each of your open water classes? Have you ever had any nervous students? If so, how did you deal with that in order to not place them on their knees?

So unless you have a way to ensure that students can be neutrally buoyant and trim at the start of CW1, it is a stupid requirement.

I'm not an instructor, but FWIW, I agree with you. I meant that the other agencies have copied PADI in using dive gear from the first confined water dive. Prior to 1981 every agency began scuba classes with multiple sessions of swimming and snorkeling skills before letting students into scuba gear.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'm not an instructor, but FWIW, I agree with you. I meant that the other agencies have copied PADI in using dive gear from the first confined water dive. Prior to 1981 every agency began scuba classes with multiple sessions of swimming and snorkeling skills before letting students into scuba gear.

I've written a 3 part series for the SDI blog. Part I was published last month. Part II, acclimating students to scuba is published soon. I discuss the exercises involving just a mask and snorkel standing in chest deep water, before moving onto freediving/skin diving, finning practice, and then finally scuba. The idea is build momentum with smaller steps to achieve comfort and control. Makes teaching NB/T so much easier.

That said, I'm always open to new ideas as I'm never satisfied with the quality of instruction that I provide.

 

[tursiops]

I discuss the exercises involving just a mask and snorkel standing in chest deep water, before moving onto freediving/skin diving, finning practice, and then finally scuba. The idea is build momentum with smaller steps to achieve comfort and control.

You are recreating the unsuccessful past, and losing the momentum of interest in trying scuba. All to make it easier for you to teach neutral buoyancy. Maybe you ought to find out how others teach NB without losing the advantage of getting them in scuba gear as soon as possible....

 

[lowwall]

You are recreating the unsuccessful past, and losing the momentum of interest in trying scuba. All to make it easier for you to teach neutral buoyancy. Maybe you ought to find out how others teach NB without losing the advantage of getting them in scuba gear as soon as possible....

That seems unnecessarily harsh. My 12-year-old son was recently certified. Before the class we spent some time in our condo pool without scuba gear learning mask clears and underwater mask remove/replace and using fins. We didn't do anything for neutral buoyancy other than talk about it but the exercises appeared to help his OW class to go very smoothly and quickly.

I also remember from my OW course how much easier everything was for me, a snorkeler and former competitive swimmer, than everyone else in the class.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You are recreating the unsuccessful past, and losing the momentum of interest in trying scuba. All to make it easier for you to teach neutral buoyancy. Maybe you ought to find out how others teach NB without losing the advantage of getting them in scuba gear as soon as possible....

Like from @Peter Guy himself? You know, one of the people who co-authored with John that article published in 2011? It takes very little time, and some students have loved it.

And the freediving/skindiving part. I picked that up from Mark Powell. Keep your eyes and ears open and you can get lucky to pick up tips that improve your teaching.

That seems unnecessarily harsh.

That's exactly why @tursiops is on my ignore list. I sometimes click on the show ignore people to see if there is anything worth reading. Unfortunately, many of his comments are not constructive. But I'll still play his game here.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

The way to get around this is to give a "free" skin diving course after the swim/float tests.

I suppose nothing is stopping you from doing this.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I suppose nothing is stopping you from doing this.

That is true, but as I said, it is silly to use a loophole.

 

[The Chairman]

Do you actually teach neutral buoyancy/trim from the start of each of your open water classes? Have you ever had any nervous students? If so, how did you deal with that in order to not place them on their knees?

So unless you have a way to ensure that students can be neutrally buoyant and trim at the start of CW1, it is a stupid requirement.

I'm not sure I understand... is this a real question? Most instructors teach from the bottom up. That's a hard go for me, so I teach from the top down. Let's get them trim and comfortable on the surface with a slow frog kick. 5 to 10 laps should do it. We can even do mask clears and OOA right there. But, after the swim and snorkel test, they are on Scuba. Once they are comfortable, let's get some weight on them and let them swim just above the bottom.