Agencies and Nitrox

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I took the PADI Nitrox course...

and I didn't find that the dives were very necessary except for the fact that it let me "complete the training loop" so-to-speak. Actually completing a log and verifying it made me feel psycologically better.
 
Walter once bubbled...
.................and I wonder why neither PADI nor SSI teach best mix. This is a formula I use prior to planning any nitrox dive. It's very useful.
Simple. It's beyond the course objective of making a safe recreational nitrox diver.
You'd never mix a best mix for a dive in the recreational range of 100' or less. The course is a recreational use course. MOD (same formula - just solving for a different variable) is what's important to the recreational Nitrox diver and is thoroughly covered (so best mix calculations are covered but from the angle of "what can I do with the gas I've got"); the best mix concept isn't needed and the term is only mentioned in passing.
Best mix is covered in Advanced Nitrox. As is deco, redundant regs, deco bottles, shooting bags & all that stuff that goes along with the higher level of planning.
Rick
 
Spectre,
It's ok, you can argue with me.

Here is my concern about not being required to do the dives. It is true that you areen't demonstrating skills like using a lift bag or running a search pattern. Often, though, The reading and the testing isn't enough. You need the hands on part. It's suprising how many can ace a test yet in the field you find out there was something that was not fully understood or the application was not understood. Taking the theory and applying it in the field along with the judgment and discipline to plan and dive within the plan is IMO what is required to demonstrate that you understand and can apply the theory. My other concern is that there are some skills that are used on every dive. Since nitrox makes it that much more important to dive within your plan and proper limits It is my opinion that the instructor must evaluate the students proficiency in these skills. Navigation, buoyancy control and finning technique are skills that are used on every dive and as the dive becomes more complex these basic skills become even more critical. A score of 100% on a test does not tell me that a student has the control and awareness to stay at or above the max planned depth on a wall.

Both PADI and IANTD, although they require dives, allow the nitrox dives to be combined with the dives of another classes. like to combine nitrox with AOW or a Deep Diver class. This lets them apply the use of nitrox to a dive that already has an objective. I like the student to have the oportunity to bust the mod or forget to add cns% of repetative dives.

Here are some common things I see that , too me, justify the dives. I'll show up at the dive site and pull a labeled eanx tank out of my truck and give it to the student. How many students would you say would assemble their equipment and jump in the water without questioning the analysis even though they got that question right on the test? Some figure the gas is good because I'm the instructor. They won't make that mistake again. Lots of times a student will forget to do things like add CNS% over rep dives. We do a dive, they log it and then when planning the next dive I ask what their total O2 exposure will be after the dive and they give me the exposure from the second dive rather than the total from both. A mistake like that could bite you when on a trip doing a bunch of dives in a day. It's not that they don't know it but knowing and having experience applying it are not the same. There are many other little mistakes I see. Is it possible to read the book and do it? For some, yes. As an instructor, though, how do I know you can unless I see it and maybe test it a little.

These are simple no-brainer mistakes but people make them all the time. It isn't rocket science but the experience gained from a couple and maybe a couple of instructor "tests" is pretty cheap insurance.
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
It's ok, you can argue with me.

Nope... no argument from me. I actually agree with most everything you state. Granted, I was actually quite impressed with the TDI exam, in that it drew things together that you would never be able to draw together if you didn't understand the concepts. Now does that replace the practical tests? No.

However you started this by stating that you'd like to not honor my TDI card because I didn't go on a couple of dives with an instructor... I'm still not totally convinced that the dives are that important.

Now... if you were able to find grounds for such an action, that'd be a different story. For example: if you filled a tank for me, told me it was, 30% and asked me to sign for it. If I didn't witness your analysis and didn't ask it to be analysed again or for me to be allowed to analyse... then I'd agree with you not honoring my certification.

However there is two things. 1) There is no guarantee that those that do the PADI dives are competent. 2) There is no guarantee that those that do the TDI certification are not competent. 3) There is no guarantee that just because they have a TDI card, they _didn't_ do dives. The dives are not _required_, but they are recommended.

Personally I prefer the TDI card because I feel the TDI course was much more complete than what I've heard of the PADI course.
 
Spectre,
I would honor your card, I was just making a point and I would like to rattle the cage of the guy who wrote those standards. Your right doing the dives is no garantee. I just don't like some of our current trends. I believe it is the responsibility of the instructor to ensure that the applicable skills have been adequately mastered. IMO, the best time to evaluate dive related skills is while diving.
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I just don't like some of our current trends. I believe it is the responsibility of the instructor to ensure that the applicable skills have been adequately mastered.

I can't agree more! I just wish the instructor populus understood their own responsibility.
 
Spectre once bubbled...
...the course can be taken by someone right out of their OW course.

I thought that PADI required AOW certification before taking nitrox. Is it different with other agencies? (Or am I just wrong about the PADI standard?)
 
Perhaps this is very controversial but I personally believe all divers should be trained using Nitrox from day one.

Why?
  • If you are capable of diving with air you are safe to dive with Nitrox;- Actual diving with Nitrox is no different from diving with air apart from;
  • Nitrogen is bad for you. Nitrox contains less Nitrogen.
  • The principles of Nitrox are easy to learn.
  • Nitrox gives you longer bottom times.
  • On a dive with the proper mix for the planned depth there is little or no risk of CNS toxicity.
  • With a planned maximum ppO2 of 1.4 bar CNS oxygen toxicity is very, very unlikely indeed.
  • Pulmonary oxygen toxicity is unheard of in typical recreational exposures.
  • You will want to use Nitrox in time so why not use it straight away.
  • Calculating the Maximum Operating Depth is easy.
  • I feel better after a Nitrox dive than I do when diving with air.
  • Ordinary scuba equipment can be used unless the fO2 is greater than 40%. However, even then, preparing equipment for oxygen service is straightforward.
  • Using an oxygen test meter to check a mix is simplicity itself.
  • Nitrox computers are cheap and provide accurate no-stop times.

For a pp O2 of 1.4 bar what mix should I use for a dive with a maximum depth to X metres?

Mix x (Maxdepth in metres/10)+1 = pp O2,

Where pp O2 is 1.4;

Mix = 1.4/((depth M/10)+1).

For a dive where the maximum depth is 30 metres ;

Mix = 1.4/((30/10)+1) = 1.4/4 = 0.35 = EAN 35%

No stop limit at 30 metres for EAN 35% is 27 minutes.

How about that for a Nitrox course?

Where do I send my invoice for £85? :D
 
I thought that PADI required AOW certification before taking nitrox. Is it different with other agencies? (Or am I just wrong about the PADI standard?)
They changed it...not sure when, but you can go straight to nitrox from OW now...you do not need AOW.
 
Rick,

"It's beyond the course objective of making a safe recreational nitrox diver."

There's another objective in most nitrox classes. Most people take a nitrox course to get the maximum bottom time. You can't accomplish this if you can't calculate your best mix. It is merely another application of the MOD formula, but many people have a math phobia and will never discover this on their own.
 

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