Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[Kendall Raine]

Because, AOW as a sampler is pretty useless and doesn’t really teach you anything, not thoroghly anyway. And as a prereq for other classes, it is clear they are leaving it because it is a revenue stream. Notice I never said there was anything wrong with a revenue stream BTW, I understand it’s business.
Like I said, on it’s own all AOW is really good for is a pass ticket for dive boats, which has nothing to do with $$$$. Dive boats and certification agencies are not connected.
Perhaps dive boats are a little misguided thinking AOW is some sort if guarantee.

Why does AOW mean anything at all? Ask yourself why isn’t OW good enough to get on dive boats and do other specialties? Lacking something perhaps?
It used to be that a basic NAUI sport diver card got you anywhere.

Why don’t they offer an OW+ and just add in the extra time and money that you would pay for AOW anyway and really teach you something that would be usable. It could be an optional upgraded version of OW that teaches everything in basic OW but then goes on to include PBB, some basic rescue, navigation, and a few deep dives, and throw in Nitrox too.
Notice I didn’t say add it in for free!

My PADI basic course in 1971 was effectively what you describe in your OW+ idea. I suspect instructors had more discretion on what they could cover. Those days one was either certified or not. Even then it was a "learner's permit" allowing people to really learn to dive by diving. I suspect the evolution (bifuraction/trifurcation) of curriculum involved many factors including: ease of scheduling, knowledge retention, achieving lower initial price point, ability to cover skills/concepts in greater detail in separate courses, and yes sure, "put another dollar in" economics (what cynics assert: just the industry's way of driving class/gear sales without the inconvenience of having to produce competent divers). Regardless of motives/rationale the effect has been to dilute the content/scope of BOW to the point where AOW is really just BOW part 2 (one might argue Rescue is BOW part 3). I think the dive resorts/boats/insurance companies are simply reacting to this dilution by requiring that divers meet minimum skills requirements (not achieved in BOW).

ScubaBoard could do a valuable service to the diving community if it spent more time educating new divers about how to find a good instructor and call out the shops instructors who are NOT good, instead of endless repetitive whining about how instructors suck.

Couldn't agree more. This is a great idea and, if not done previously, something that the instructors/moderators on SB can take as a "best practices/questions to ask/redflags to watch for" project resulting in a library/resource item so new divers don't have to wade through the often painful (and distracting) polemics of open thread discussions.

 

[Racer_X]

I've theoretically been through AOW twice. In 1986, I did Naui OW I and OW II at the same time. OW II was analogous to AOW, and it was exhausting. The deep dive was on a plane wreck 70' down and one of the other dives was a panel truck drive 60' down, and had skills tests both times. But later NAUI determined that didn't meet the AOW requirements, so I took padi AOW in 2012 and it was a joke.
I didn't appreciate the instructor telling the younger diver stories about "finishing off" non-full tanks w/o pressure gauges while high diving off oil rigs, but he noticed some of my, ahem, "legacy" dive gear and left me alone and gave me the card at the end of the weekend.
Skills gained- 0
Refresher? sure
Card - now I don't get hassled for not having it.

 

[tursiops]

I've theoretically been through AOW twice. In 1986, I did Naui OW I and OW II at the same time. OW II was analogous to AOW, and it was exhausting. The deep dive was on a plane wreck 70' down and one of the other dives was a panel truck drive 60' down, and had skills tests both times. But later NAUI determined that didn't meet the AOW requirements, so I took padi AOW in 2012 and it was a joke.
I didn't appreciate the instructor telling the younger diver stories about "finishing off" non-full tanks w/o pressure gauges while high diving off oil rigs, but he noticed some of my, ahem, "legacy" dive gear and left me alone and gave me the card at the end of the weekend.
Skills gained- 0
Refresher? sure
Card - now I don't get hassled for not having it.

I'm sorry you had a crappy AOW instructor, apparently not following the standards. Did you say anything to him or the shop?

 

[Racer_X]

Therein lies the conundrum of risk/reward. Possible impact: relationship burned with LDS and/or instructor and multiple LDS in the region as I get a rep of a troublesome student considering it's a long time, well known shop. Return: a poor experience is changed positively for unknown amount of others - which has value, without a doubt.

Apply likelihood to impact to determine risk and number of students+likelihood of change+degree of improvement to determine reward. Too many unknown variables.

Overall, what would a maximum value AOW, given current curriculum, provide an OW diver?
1. Rated to dive deeper (but the bottom of the dive site is 61')
2. Another navigation dive (navigation is taught in OW by orgs other than PADI) - so practice
3. Peak Performance Buoyancy (which can be done by reading about proper weighting techniques and practicing) - net value is practice with a little coaching - 30 min or so.
4. Drift - not available in my area
5. Night - no huge difference over a night dive with a DM in the water (IMO)
6. S&R - introduction to basic search patterns used on land in the water - there could be value here in practice.
7. Fish ID - really?
8. nitrox- no substitute for the real course, and the value of nitrox is obvious
9. Wreck - not available in my area.

In my view the value of AOW is deep dive and practicing your skills. So rather than tell the shop, I simply stick "scubaboard.com" notices on their bulletin board so they get certified, come here and learn the skills they can then practice on their own and guide their own development.

Based on my reading here and review of online course standards, I'd say GUE fundamentals > AOW, and passing THAT should be accepted as such. It'd be easy to throw in some deep dives on a weekend with a deeper study curriculum and get OW+AOW all done at once. That'd make it cheaper to get people into the sport, which would be better for everyone.

I'm just glad I was old enough to see that my instructor was not someone I should be learning from, but instead serves as an example.

 

[tursiops]

Therein lies the conundrum of risk/reward. Possible impact: relationship burned with LDS and/or instructor and multiple LDS in the region as I get a rep of a troublesome student considering it's a long time, well known shop. Return: a poor experience is changed positively for unknown amount of others - which has value, without a doubt.

Apply likelihood to impact to determine risk and number of students+likelihood of change+degree of improvement to determine reward. Too many unknown variables.

Overall, what would a maximum value AOW, given current curriculum, provide an OW diver?
1. Rated to dive deeper (but the bottom of the dive site is 61')
2. Another navigation dive (navigation is taught in OW by orgs other than PADI) - so practice
3. Peak Performance Buoyancy (which can be done by reading about proper weighting techniques and practicing) - net value is practice with a little coaching - 30 min or so.
4. Drift - not available in my area
5. Night - no huge difference over a night dive with a DM in the water (IMO)
6. S&R - introduction to basic search patterns used on land in the water - there could be value here in practice.
7. Fish ID - really?
8. nitrox- no substitute for the real course, and the value of nitrox is obvious
9. Wreck - not available in my area.

In my view the value of AOW is deep dive and practicing your skills. So rather than tell the shop, I simply stick "scubaboard.com" notices on their bulletin board so they get certified, come here and learn the skills they can then practice on their own and guide their own development.

Based on my reading here and review of online course standards, I'd say GUE fundamentals > AOW, and passing THAT should be accepted as such. It'd be easy to throw in some deep dives on a weekend with a deeper study curriculum and get OW+AOW all done at once. That'd make it cheaper to get people into the sport, which would be better for everyone.

I'm just glad I was old enough to see that my instructor was not someone I should be learning from, but instead serves as an example.

So you are saying that 5 days of Fundies beats 5h of AOW. Unnhh, yes.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

ScubaBoard could do a valuable service to the diving community if it spent more time educating new divers about how to find a good instructor and call out the shops instructors who are NOT good,....

Brilliant! Can we file that under "how to reduce the number of places one can get air fills"?

 

[tursiops]

Brilliant! Can we file that under "how to reduce the number of places one can get air fills"?

LOL. So your main concern is where to get air fills?

 

[tarponchik]

IMO, AOW is a hoax to squeeze out more $$$ from divers. The 60 ft depth limit is completely artificial. There is no special knowledge needed to dive to 100 ft or to 120 ft as compared to 55 ft; you need the same skills and follow the same rules. Air management at depth? Google it, 5 min. The risks of nitrogen narcosis? Google it, 5 min. Deep dive planning? Look at the dive tables and try to figure out how planning a 70 ft dive is different from planning a 50 ft dive.

Naturally, those of you who teach AOW will disagree, so anyone who says otherwise shall disclose any conflicts of interest.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

IMO, AOW is a hoax to squeeze out more $$$ from divers. The 60 ft depth limit is completely artificial. There is no special knowledge needed to dive to 100 ft or to 120 ft as compared to 55 ft; you need the same skills and follow the same rules. Air management at depth? Google it, 5 min. The risks of nitrogen narcosis? Google it, 5 min. Deep dive planning? Look at the dive tables and try to figure out how planning a 70 ft dive is different from planning a 50 ft dive.

Naturally, those of you who teach AOW will disagree, so anyone who says otherwise shall disclose any conflicts of interest.

Well it depends. I used to teach it, but no one finished in 5 dives. I would have them practice and then test. I was pretty strict on finning, so I did start with PPB. I did this as I wanted their AOW to mean something.

Edit: and when a new shop manager came in as the old one left, he flew off the handle saying I was making the other instructors look bad. Now my solution was for the others to up their game, but he took that as snark. He demanded to know how long it would take to get through my courses and didn't accept my answer of that depends on the student. Shrug.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

If true, did you say anything to anybody (like PADI, orthe dive shop), or have you been complicit in the fraud?

I was going to report it to PADI and was discussing with some other diving mentors and they said don't bother, PADI won't do anything about it so I didn't. After learning more about the organization realized they were likely correct. I still think about reporting it from time to time though.