Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[Eric Sedletzky]

I agree. But how do you square this statement with the one above, where you claim requiring AOW is all about the money?

Because, AOW as a sampler is pretty useless and doesn’t really teach you anything, not thoroghly anyway. And as a prereq for other classes, it is clear they are leaving it because it is a revenue stream. Notice I never said there was anything wrong with a revenue stream BTW, I understand it’s business.
Like I said, on it’s own all AOW is really good for is a pass ticket for dive boats, which has nothing to do with $$$$. Dive boats and certification agencies are not connected.
Perhaps dive boats are a little misguided thinking AOW is some sort if guarantee.

Why does AOW mean anything at all? Ask yourself why isn’t OW good enough to get on dive boats and do other specialties? Lacking something perhaps?
It used to be that a basic NAUI sport diver card got you anywhere.

Why don’t they offer an OW+ and just add in the extra time and money that you would pay for AOW anyway and really teach you something that would be usable. It could be an optional upgraded version of OW that teaches everything in basic OW but then goes on to include PBB, some basic rescue, navigation, and a few deep dives, and throw in Nitrox too.
Notice I didn’t say add it in for free!

 

[tursiops]

Why don’t they offer an OW+ and just add in the extra time and money that you would pay for AOW anyway and really teach you something that would be usable. It could be an optional upgraded version of OW that teaches everything in basic OW but then goes on to include PBB, some basic rescue, navigation, and a few deep dives, and throw in Nitrox too.
Notice I didn’t say add it in for free!

Terrific idea! We could call it....AOW!

 

[Outbound]

Because, AOW as a sampler is pretty useless and doesn’t really teach you anything, not thoroghly anyway. And as a prereq for other classes, it is clear they are leaving it because it is a revenue stream. Notice I never said there was anything wrong with a revenue stream BTW, I understand it’s business.
Like I said, on it’s own all AOW is really good for is a pass ticket for dive boats, which has nothing to do with $$$$. Dive boats and certification agencies are not connected.
Perhaps dive boats are a little misguided thinking AOW is some sort if guarantee.

Why does AOW mean anything at all? Ask yourself why isn’t OW good enough to get on dive boats and do other specialties? Lacking something perhaps?
It used to be that a basic NAUI sport diver card got you anywhere.

Why don’t they offer an OW+ and just add in the extra time and money that you would pay for AOW anyway and really teach you something that would be usable. It could be an optional upgraded version of OW that teaches everything in basic OW but then goes on to include PBB, some basic rescue, navigation, and a few deep dives, and throw in Nitrox too.
Notice I didn’t say add it in for free!

Well, by that argument Open Water certification doesn't really teach you anything thoroughly either. And it's a prerequisite for other classes.

And an Open Water cert is good enough for plenty of dive boats. But it depends on what dive sites they plan on hitting. For deeper sites it makes sense that dive ops want to see an AOW card. It's not perfect but at least it shows that you've been somewhat trained for a dive to 100'.

As for the NAUI sport diver card, isn't that roughly the same as today's AOW? If so, what's your issue with AOW?

 

[rob.mwpropane]

Because, AOW as a sampler is pretty useless and doesn’t really teach you anything, not thoroghly anyway. And as a prereq for other classes, it is clear they are leaving it because it is a revenue stream. Notice I never said there was anything wrong with a revenue stream BTW, I understand it’s business.
Like I said, on it’s own all AOW is really good for is a pass ticket for dive boats, which has nothing to do with $$$$. Dive boats and certification agencies are not connected.
Perhaps dive boats are a little misguided thinking AOW is some sort if guarantee.

Why does AOW mean anything at all? Ask yourself why isn’t OW good enough to get on dive boats and do other specialties? Lacking something perhaps?
It used to be that a basic NAUI sport diver card got you anywhere.

Why don’t they offer an OW+ and just add in the extra time and money that you would pay for AOW anyway and really teach you something that would be usable. It could be an optional upgraded version of OW that teaches everything in basic OW but then goes on to include PBB, some basic rescue, navigation, and a few deep dives, and throw in Nitrox too.
Notice I didn’t say add it in for free!

I think people want something tangible... like a card. I didn't know what I didn't know early on, I thought cards were the way up and out. I know a LOT of people get sucked into that game, it's easy to do, it's designed that way. It's exciting, the dive shop is showering you with praise and 80% of the stuff you're learning is irrelevant. I meet so many instructors that think they're amazing because the shop told them they were.... meanwhile they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground (not to say I'm any better, I'm not, I just know that I don't know and that leaves room to grow).

I think most people don't want to accept the fact that to get good at diving it takes time and experience diving different environments. They want the fast track, the next card. Give me a class and that way I can say I am whatever that card says I am.

Locally, anyone can sign up for certain boats. You get on those boats and you work your way to deeper wrecks. People get to know you. You might need someone to vouch for you, but honestly all I've ever been asked for is to sign a waiver and what my run time is. No one has ever asked to see my credentials, not ever once. I either have what it takes, or I don't. You can spot it in 30 seconds. I did have to drop some names on my last boat but it was just to satisfy the dude that was booking the charter.

I think captains would MUCH prefer an OW diver with 100 boat dives then a AOW diver with 9 dives any day.

 

[Johnboy70_99]

I went through the aow earlier this year and agree with others, there is really not a whole lot to it. My instructor said my boyancy was fine and we basically just did deep, navigation, and then 3 more regular dives similar to dives I would have done anyway. They qualified for boat, drift, and boyancy. He was helpful and offered tips when needed, and I studied the material carefully.

I joke with others, now I have been certified on how to properly throw up off of a boat. I have not yet ever thrown up on a boat by the way, but I passed the review question on where to throw up off of.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Terrific idea! We could call it....AOW!

But it’s not!!!!!
Do you understand the irony here???
Call it something else, the term “Advanced Open Water” is done, it’s no good anymore, too much baggage. Throw it out and start over.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I went through the aow earlier this year and agree with others, there is really not a whole lot to it. My instructor said my boyancy was fine and we basically just did deep, navigation, and then 3 more regular dives similar to dives I would have done anyway. They qualified for boat, drift, and boyancy. He was helpful and offered tips when needed, and I studied the material carefully.

I joke with others, now I have been certified on how to properly throw up off of a boat. I have not yet ever thrown up on a boat by the way, but I passed the review question on where to throw up off of.

The boat crew will instruct you how to properly puke off a boat.

 

[tursiops]

But it’s not!!!!!
Do you understand the irony here???
Call it something else, the term “Advanced Open Water” is done, it’s no good anymore, too much baggage. Throw it out and start over.

The irony is you saying we need something more than OW, something that gets into better buoyancy, nitrox, deep, rescue, navigation....but that is exactly what AOW can do! Why not use AOW the way you describe?
Many do, in fact, taking AOW quite soon after OW. I suggest OW + AOW is pretty much want you call OW+, unless you are thinking that OW+ takes two months and 20 dives....which no one is going to do.

Maybe you are not aware that one of the Adventure dives for AOW can be Rescue. You get a nice intro to the full Rescue course; here are the teaching standards from the Instructor Manual:

Rescue Adventure Dive​

Considerations​

1. Have divers complete Rescue Diver course knowledge development: Section One – Responding to Diver Emergencies and Section Three – Missing Diver Procedures, via either option:​

a. Study using PADI Rescue Diver eLearning or the Rescue Diver Manual​

b. Cover the topics using the Rescue Diver Course Lesson Guide Presentation Notes.​

2. Have divers complete the Rescue Adventure Dive Knowledge Review.​

3. Complete these Rescue Diver course skills:​

a. Self-rescue skills: cramp release and alternate air source use​

b. Exercise 1 – Tired Diver​

c. Exercise 2 – Panicked Diver​

d. Exercise 5 – Missing Diver​

​

Ignore those who keep whining that AOW is worthless....it does not need to be worthless. If taught to standards, with a good instructor and a student who wants to learn, it can be a terrific course.​

​

ScubaBoard could do a valuable service to the diving community if it spent more time educating new divers about how to find a good instructor and call out the shops instructors who are NOT good, instead of endless repetitive whining about how instructors suck. Except GUE, of course.​

 

[Jim Lapenta]

When I was teaching my AOW was 6 dives and I wrote the guidelines for them. They met all the standards and exceeded them. We used my book SCUBA: A Practical Guide to Advanced Level Training as the text.
Each dive was 45 minutes to an hour long. Except the deep dive. That was roughly a half an hour from descent to surface.
And no, it was not a sample of the dives. Each dive taught new skills and imparted new knowledge because I know how much operators use the AOW card to get out of liability while putting people on sites and dives they have no business being on.
BUT, try to compete with the shops and instructors that rush people through and it's not worth it.
My class was $425 per person or 600 for a private class. I never took more than 2 students at a time for AOW.
And the card was not guaranteed. You met the performance requirements I set or you didn't get the card. And if you didn't have the skills required to start the class, we worked on getting them first.
If your buoyancy and trim sucked, you would not enjoy the class and most likely fail it.

 

[Twiny]

Ok so you just had a "good average" Advanced Open Water training completed in 2,5 days with a "good average" instructor, then many would go again for Rescue & guiding skills with the same big agencies ... and many of them after all this will still be very average at trim&propulsion, proper breathing TK with no clue about back finkicking ...
so what about changing this fate ? What about taking a fundamental course (not Tec) with a Tec training agency : GUE, ISE or UTD ?
The price of such a fundamental course is around 1000 US$ but your instructor is for sure an expert and for this price you get : advanced + Rescue + Nitrox levels ...
Think twice
Wish you happy bubbles