Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[Forbin's Descent]

That's over and done; PADI has dealt with it. I thought he had mentioned some other case he'd heard of. If not, I apologize. I'm just hypersensitive to "I heard...." kinds of so-called evidence.

How'd they deal with it? I never saw any statement or anything. I would like to read their statement if they did issue one. All I saw was they paid their hush money.

My training documentation I would consider empirical evidence, not hearsay.

 

[boulderjohn]

What specific evidence would it take to please you?

Hell, if my evidence wasn't enough to please him, what would it take? A death due to negligence of a certified instructor and shop? Oh wait, we have that too.

If you want to provide evidence of widespread problems requiring massive change, you need to provide evidence of a need for massive change. The fact that a handful of people with individual experiences are unhappy does not constitute any such evidence whatsoever.

Well over a million people get certifications each year (all levels). The last statistics I saw from PADI alone had them certifying over 900,000 people a year. There are bound to be problems with that much going on. Consider how much time and 3expse we spend on training doctors and giving them licenses to practice medicine. Yet there are about 20,000 malpractice lawsuits filed each year.

If you want to convince the entire WRSTC that it needs to make massive changes, you will need to show more than a rogue instructor here or a training death there. If that's all you've got, then the scuba industry would take it as a sign it is doing really well.

So what statistics can you cite worldwide to show a systemic problem?

 

[boulderjohn]

My training documentation I would consider empirical evidence, not hearsay.

Evidence of what? A single really bad instructor? A bad dive shop?

I was driving the other day, and I was passed by a driver doing at least 100 mph. Does that mean we need to overhaul the entire driver education system?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

If you want to provide evidence of widespread problems requiring massive change, you need to provide evidence of a need for massive change. The fact that a handful of people with individual experiences are unhappy does not constitute any such evidence whatsoever.

Well over a million people get certifications each year (all levels). The last statistics I saw from PADI alone had them certifying over 900,000 people a year. There are bound to be problems with that much going on. Consider how much time and 3expse we spend on training doctors and giving them licenses to practice medicine. Yet there are about 20,000 malpractice lawsuits filed each year.

If you want to convince the entire WRSTC that it needs to make massive changes, you will need to show more than a rogue instructor here or a training death there. If that's all you've got, then the scuba industry would take it as a sign it is doing really well.

So what statistics can you cite worldwide to show a systemic problem?

No one is asking for massive change. People are asking for SOME change. FFS, look at DAN's 2016 report for top ten changes they'd like to see. Are they using rectal sources for that list? It isn't just a bunch of SB curmudgeons making baseless claims.

Most people don't care. There are many real problems in the world that people don't care about. That doesn't mean that they are not a problem or that the few people complaining are wrong.

 

[boulderjohn]

Linnea Mills dying is hearsay?!?

Let's look at that and ask the question: why aren't you also responsible for that death? After all, you worked with that instructor. You had the opportunity to observe her incompetence. Why didn't you report it?

 

[Forbin's Descent]

you will need to show more than a rogue instructor here or a training death there. If that's all you've got,

How many deaths would it take for you? 10? 100? 1000?

 

[tursiops]

How'd they deal with it? I never saw any statement or anything. I would like to read their statement if they did issue one. All I saw was they paid their hush money.

My training documentation I would consider empirical evidence, not hearsay.

Yes, YOUR training documentation is very good evidence. pity it is going unused.

PADI settled out of court, but immediately and drastically changed its entire drysuit training regimen.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Let's look at that and ask the question: why aren't you also responsible for that death? After all, you worked with that instructor. You had the opportunity to observe her incompetence. Why didn't you report it?

Oh this is freaking awesome! Oh John, this is a new level of ridiculousness.

1. I observed one day of her AI training. I saw that she was trained neutrally buoyant and trimmed.
2. As an AI, she assisted in the pool one of my courses where I was teaching neutrally and trimmed.
3. She did shore support for that same course where she saw me weight my students properly and individually.
4. I never dove with her, but she did have a number of dives in a dry suit in Puget Sound.

I never witnessed any incompetence on her part. I would have expected her to have learned something. Maybe her IDC reversed the training/knowledge she received.

I think your question should be for Rainbow Reef on how they passed someone so incompetent. Maybe ask, no DEMAND, from the PADI IE for passing someone so incompetent, as they saw her IN THE CAPACITY as an instructor. I never did.

MODS: please don't delete John's and my comments. Please. I want these to stay up for posterity.

 

[boulderjohn]

How many deaths would it take for you? 10? 100? 1000?

Here's what you can do. You can go to the annual DAN report and look at their analyses of fatalities. You can trace them back for decades. The first statistics come from the 1970s, but they were not compiled by DAN then, and they were much more limited in their ability to get that information. Know what you will find? Fatalities these days are much fewer than then, even though we have far more divers and better information gathering now.

I used to do an analysis of the DAN reports every year for this very reason--to contradict the people who were spinning stories based on their whims.

 

[boulderjohn]

I never witnessed any incompetence on her part. I would have expected her to have learned something. Maybe her IDC reversed the training/knowledge she received.

Wow! Are you saying it is possible for an instructor to be perfectly competent when being officially observed and then go out and do something really stupid when on their own?

Do you think the guy who drove past me at 100 mph the other day did that on his driver's test? Do you think the 20,000 doctors who are sued for malpractice each year were similarly incompetent during their training?