Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[Angelo Farina]

I am a Cmas instructor, so I am not in the position to discuss deeply the policies of other agencies.
I just give my family's experience with Padi AOW courses. It is limited and dated, so get it for what it is.
In 2007 I, mycwife (also a Cmas instructor and with more experience than me) and our two sons having 12 and 17 years traveled to Australia for one month trip.
Being in Cairns for a conference, we included a three days LOB on the Great Barrier. We found the cheapest operator, Pro Dive Cairns, who offered an appealing package of 11 dives, which did include a Padi course of our choice.
This was appealing for my sons, who, despite having already diving for many years under guidance of me and my wife, at the time had just a Padi OW card.
So they got their AOW on the boat, making both theory and practice in those three days.
I found the approach of a "sample platter of specialties" a proper choice, making my sons experiencing different tasks: deep dive, orienteering and navigation, UW photography, night diving, etc.
They did learn some skills which they had never experienced here in the mediterranean sea (as dealing with sharks and fire coral, using a compass and a diving computer).
They used for the first time a jacket BCD (here they usually were with no BCD or with my plastic plate plus super-small wing, which they tendentially always left empty).
They also used for the first time a full-body wet suit and a belt with too many weights.
Finally they had their first experience with repetitive dives in a day, with surface intervals and the resulting deco constraints.
So they really learned a lot in just 3 days, and in the end all 4 of us considered it a very good experience.
The cost was negligible, it was just 50 AUD above the cost of the same trip and dives with no AOW certification.
So, I can understand some of the criticism I have read in this thread, but mostly instead I do not endorse it.
The PADI AOW provides a suite of interesting and useful experiences which extend significantly beyonds the OW training dives. Also the theory required covers topics which were not included in the OW course, which is truly minimal.
So I think that the AOW is a good step up. A diver holding just OW certification is not yet properly trained according to my Cmas standards.
After AOW the level is much better, although for completing the training, in my opinion, a recreational diver should also get two additional specialties, which are Nitrox and Rescue.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

In one post, I believe someone quoted around USD500 for the OW course, and mentioned that he thought it was cheap. Well yes it is,

Great insight. Thanks for taking the time to post. This was me on the cost. In comparison, my cave instructor charges $300 a day and I go until I've got it. whether that takes 3 days or 7. I scheduled 7 just to be safe. When I did my cavern I looked at the time this guy spent with me (one day was well over 10 hours) and was like with expenses he made under $20 an hour with me so I tipped him handsomely. He also brought other skills to the table like being a former flight medic. I like doing adventurous things with team members who can bring me back should things go awry so considered that experience and resource as part of my tip calculation as well.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

I am a Cmas instructor, so I am not in the position to discuss deeply the policies of other agencies.
I just give my family's experience with Padi AOW courses. It is limited and dated, so get it for what it is.
In 2007 I, mycwife (also a Cmas instructor and with more experience than me) and our two sons having 12 and 17 years traveled to Australia for one month trip.
Being in Cairns for a conference, we included a three days LOB on the Great Barrier. We found the cheapest operator, Pro Dive Cairns, who offered an appealing package of 11 dives, which did include a Padi course of our choice.
This was appealing for my sons, who, despite having already diving for many years under guidance of me and my wife, at the time had just a Padi OW card.
So they got their AOW on the boat, making both theory and practice in those three days.
I found the approach of a "sample platter of specialties" a proper choice, making my sons experiencing different tasks: deep dive, orienteering and navigation, UW photography, night diving, etc.
They did learn some skills which they had never experienced here in the mediterranean sea (as dealing with sharks and fire coral, using a compass and a diving computer).
They used for the first time a jacket BCD (here they usually were with no BCD or with my plastic plate plus super-small wing, which they tendentially always left empty).
They also used for the first time a full-body wet suit and a belt with too many weights.
Finally they had their first experience with repetitive dives in a day, with surface intervals and the resulting deco constraints.
So they really learned a lot in just 3 days, and in the end all 4 of us considered it a very good experience.
The cost was negligible, it was just 50 AUD above the cost of the same trip and dives with no AOW certification.
So, I can understand some of the criticism I have read in this thread, but mostly instead I do not endorse it.
The PADI AOW provides a suite of interesting and useful experiences which extend significantly beyonds the OW training dives. Also the theory required covers topics which were not included in the OW course, which is truly minimal.
So I think that the AOW is a good step up. A diver holding just OW certification is not yet properly trained according to my Cmas standards.
After AOW the level is much better, although for completing the training, in my opinion, a recreational diver should also get two additional specialties, which are Nitrox and Rescue.

Good feedback. I think the issue with a lot of us is it sold in a way that we perceive it is more than it is. The first being "Advanced Open Water." It is hardly advanced. Quite frankly it should be a part of one's initial training but that would make things cost restrictive to a lot of folks turning them off from even getting started in diving.

 

[wgw04024]

PADI is, I believe, the largest agency globally involved in teaching scuba diving, and therefore statistically the number of poor instructors will be higher in number using PADI compared to another agencies with less instructors e.g. SSI. I have no statistics to back this up, only my assumption.

Let's face it when we were at school/college/university we had good teachers, bad teachers and some in-between, but what did we know at the time?

When we start diving we basically know nothing about underwater apart from what we've seen in TV and movies and depending on educational background perhaps even with no scientific background, everyone starts at a very random spot to be honest.

We occasionally see something happening at times every day and wonder why this is happening, but without a total knowledge of the back story, we can easily assume the wrong thing.

Let's remember that the OW courses are designed for 10 year olds to understand, I'm not sure that as a 10 year old I would have been ready to start scuba diving.

In one post, I believe someone quoted around USD500 for the OW course, and mentioned that he thought it was cheap. Well yes it is, my daughter charges double that when teaching OW, primarily because she has a day job and her weekends are her time. She also limits her teaching to people she assesses to be good candidates, and who will be able to do the course in whatever time she has to teach them.

You pay for what you get. I know one instructor who teaches sidemount for USD1,600, and the candidates must be AOW certified and pass an assessment dive before being accepted on his course, because he doesn't want to waste his time teaching other skills that the diver should already have.

Other instructors that I know, who are full time and doing scuba instruction every day may charge less and possibly not refuse any candidate as they have the time to work with them, even from the very basics of teaching them how to swim, and I commend them for that.

This comes down to the fact it's not the agency who teach, it's an instructor who teaches. They follow standards laid down by the agency. Some go an extra mile, others may do the basic because they're overworked and underpaid or just lazy, but as a new student, who would know what is to be done? Read the book (if you have one), the standards that are required are written down on what has to be achieved.

Most of the posts in this thread are predominantly from a US perspective too, so perhaps there is a problem with teaching diving and dive shops in the US? I know that "factory' style scuba instruction in other countries exists, Thailand immediately springs to mind, although I haven't dived there since the mid 90s, but I've seen similar practices here in the UAE with a couple of shops too Having cheap courses only reduces the quality of instruction when shops / instructors are trying to get the "masses" into scuba diving and hopefully enough people from DSDs will go on to do OW courses. But this is not an agency thing, it's a shop trying to make money and survive in a competitive market with poor business practices!

I will add that my US diving experience is limited to two dive sites with one person I met here on ScubaBoard, and had no issues with both dives (shore) and no interaction with any dive shop for these dives. My visits to US dive shops have been limited to purchasing gear only and not dive courses.

The AOW course has three choices in what the diver can do along with the two compulsory subjects, nobody should be forced to do what the shop / instructor decides if they don't like it, but then again perhaps there is limited choice in some places, which has to be taken into account.

Everyone these days appears to want stuff for as cheap as possible, and then complain that they didn't get value for money, quality doesn't come cheap.

Perhaps future AOW students should do a bit more research before signing up for AOW with a shop / instructor before committing to it.

I will add that I have no affiliation to PADI or any other dive agency and that my background in diving is a mix of various agencies including BSAC, PADI and IANTD.

1000% spot on. Well said.

Lastly, AOW is nothing more than OW2. I feel many folks it is a worthwhile course, if taken directly after OW (as I did). I'd guess in most cases, the level of proper understanding and comfort from finishing OW is not that high (it wasn't for me). AOW really made a huge difference for me. (my ow was kind of **** tbh, and I really learned everything in ow from a practical perspective.

 

[tursiops]

Good feedback. I think the issue with a lot of us is it sold in a way that we perceive it is more than it is. The first being "Advanced Open Water." It is hardly advanced. Quite frankly it should be a part of one's initial training but that would make things cost restrictive to a lot of folks turning them off from even getting started in diving.

AOW is NOT sold as you describe. It is sold as a course advanced beyond OW -- the next course, as it were -- but PADI never says it will make you an "advanced" diver. It is designed as a sampler course -- taste five specialties -- and nothing more. You are NOT going to me a specialist in any one of the five subjects, much less an advanced diver. Some dive shops/instrutors may misrepresent it, but that is not PADI. Many people -- especially here on SB with all the PADI-bashers -- definitely misunderstand and perhaps even purposefully misrepresent the class. I hope you are not going to be one of those folks.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

-- but PADI never says it will make you an "advanced" diver. It is designed as a sampler course -- taste five specialties -- and nothing more.

As a matter of fact they do. In the literature it states: "Once you are certified as an Advanced diver, you’ll be able to dive to 100 feet (30 meters)" and "The five dives required to become a PADI Advanced Open Water Diver..."

And yes, They do tiptoe around it using semantics but it's marketing. They market it as advanced training and the boats contribute by requiring it. If it's sampler course then they should call it that.

PADI gets bashed because they have earned the bashing. They are a step away from a multi level marketing company. Certify as many instructors as you can to keep those dues coming in whether they are qualified or not. And I actually will say one good thing about PADI: They are marketing geniuses.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

And I actually will say one good thing about PADI: They are marketing geniuses.

I say this often, but PADI's marketing should be studied in every MBA program. I can't think of any entities better at it.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

I say this often, but PADI's marketing should be studied in every MBA program. I can't think of any entities better at it.

Definitely.

 

[ScubaLady1117]

Practice makes perfect in any skill you are attempting to sharpen. Congrats on your AOW

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Practice makes perfect in any skill you are attempting to sharpen. Congrats on your AOW

It all depends on the foundation. If one doesn't have a proper foundation, practice ingrains those bad habits that are harder to break later. I'm a poster boy for this.