Advanced Divers too soon?..

[DevonDiver]

I don't want to send this thread off-topic, but this deserved a response.

WHY would you immediately jump in the water for someone that isn't in a life threatening situation?! Putting the DM/Rescue diver in the water is that last thing that should happen during a rescue, no matter if it's a full blown rescue or just calming someone down. It instantly adds volatility to a situation that doesn't need any more.

If someone is "freaking out" on the surface, I would suggest talking to them from the boat, if there are divers on the surface in the water (who are trained to deal with panicked divers) have them approach the diver, but unless they are in a situation where your presence in the water is required I would definitely not just jump in the water without a very good reason!

The basic rule of 'don't make yourself a casualty' does apply. But it is preceded by don't let anyone else become a casualty through your inaction.

Of course, talking to the victim... throwing them a line/float is the first recourse, but there are caveats. Firstly, that getting a line/float won't take too long. Secondly, that the victim has sufficient self-control remaining to respond to your directions (i.e. they are not truly 'panicked').

What some of the posters here realize, which you seem not to, is that panicked divers are typically unresponsive to direction. Thus, a more direct intervention is needed. That's certainly been the case in the majority of incidents I've witnessed/involved in.

If the victim remains rational...and responsive to direction, then you're providing assistance, not a rescue. We're talking about ​rescue.

 

[New Scuba Guy]

Actually, by the time I took my NAUI Advanced Openwater, the only 2 core dives I had not performed were Night Dive and Recovery Dive using a lift bag. I had been practing Navigation, Non-Penetrating Wreck, Deep, Search, and Kick Cycle Hand Span Diving and Skills with many of the more experienced people I dove with. I worked on, practiced, and discussed these skills for an additional 25-30 dives before I felt confident enough to enroll for Advanced Class. I waited until I had 50 dives in my logbook. I wanted to be a more capable, competent, and confident (but not over-confident) diver when I took the course. Still glad I did it in that manner. I feel it prepared me for it better.

 

[Zen Diving Inc.]

:shocked2::shocked2:Am I the only one who has the complaint about newbie divers going right to Advanced Diver Certification too quickly. I became NAUI Openwater Certified in 2010 and when I expressed interest in working on my NAUI Advanced Openwater, my Dive Instructor informed me that he wouldn't consider taking me through the course until I had at least 25 logged dives in my book,best advice I could have gotten. He told me that he'd tell that to anyone he took through NAUI Openwater. Get
the experience, practice the skills; buoyancy, breathing, relaxing underwater, buddy breathing, etc. I waited until I had 50 dives in my logbook.
Last month I took my NAUI Advanced Openwater Certification. 7 of the students in my classes informed me that they only had their 5 checkout PADI Openwater dives in their logbooks. 5 of them told me they were "Rescue Divers" for their local Fire Department near Pittsburgh, PA! I lost count how many times I was kicked or punched by these "divers" as they flailed around underwater. They were losing weights and pouches, bouyancy control was non-exitstent. They were down to 500# of air in less than 20 minutes and we hadn't even left the platforms! And as far as using a compass, they had the deer in the headlights look.
I had questioned my Dive Instructor about his edict about 25 dive minimum and how these folks could take Advanced Openwater with only 5 dives. He said that if they were NAUI Certified, he would have turned them away, but since they were PADI, he had to take them through the course?
I read with interest, various postings concerning diving fatalities at Dutch Springs where I do most of my diving. I firmly believe that the majority of dive "Accidents" are preventable by continous diving and practice. Most of the time when I dive at Dutch I tend to be the one with the most expereience and that's only 75 logged dives. But virtually every 1st dive of the day, we start at a platform and we practice buoyancy, relaxed breathing, buddy breathing, mask clearing and/or removal. A few weeks ago I had a group that one individual had all the latest and greatest dive gear. His regs alone were worth more than all my wife's dive gear and mine combined. When we got in the water he froze in panic. Got him out and stayed with him for awhile. We descended together and just enjoyed a nice. leisurely dive at about 20-25 feet deep once he got himself together and acclimated. Found out later he was PADI Advanced with 11 total dives to his credit.
I guess all I'm saying is that maybe some divers need to consider getting more quality underwater time, work on their dive skills, and enjoy the sport more before trying to "Advance". Anybody agree? Disagree? Thanks

Personally, IMO I Think the sooner the better. In reality the basic scuba diver course just isn't enough... So I offer a combo package "*SCUBA Diver/Advanced Diver Package: Program combines the Basic Scuba Diver and Advanced Scuba Diver courses. This program is designed for those who have the time and dedication it takes to gain a very thorough initial grounding in the fundamentals of scuba diving and its most common specialties." It doesn't really mean they are "Advanced Divers" lmao... They just have card showing they had additional training that is relevant, and what used to be included in the original course's before they got hacked to pieces. Just my 2cents...

 

[Akimbo]

Personally, IMO I Think the sooner the better. In reality the basic scuba diver course just isn't enough... So I offer a combo package "*SCUBA Diver/Advanced Diver Package: Program combines the Basic Scuba Diver and Advanced Scuba Diver courses....

My hat is off to you. Questions:

1. Do you integrate the two classes to any degree or teach them back-to-back?
2. Are most students locals or tourists?
3. If locals (due to time period), do you think there would be a market for an integrated OW, AOW, Nitrox, and maybe rescue?
4. Does the watermanship skills (swimming, comfort in the water, etc) tend to be any different between people who choose your combo over others?
5. Can you characterize any traits that differentiate students between the combo and separate classes (besides time and money)?
6. Do you sense a difference in student satisfaction with the training?

Personal Opinion Alert:
We all know there are some dive shops that use the “safety card” to frighten customers into buying regulators that cost 2-5x more than they actually need. I believe that divers and the industry would be better off if they use the valid safety argument to sell a more complete, and preferably integrated, class. I bet it would be an easy sell when parents are paying for the class!

 

[jar546]

I have an instructor friend of mine who packages the OW and AOW together for competitive pricing in his market. He gets more money up front and it guarantees that the students will also have AOW rather than trying to sell them twice, he does it once. The end result is that all of his OW students are AOW when he is done with them. That would not work with SSI.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

I have an instructor friend of mine who packages the OW and AOW together for competitive pricing in his market. He gets more money up front and it guarantees that the students will also have AOW rather than trying to sell them twice, he does it once. The end result is that all of his OW students are AOW when he is done with them. That would not work with SSI.

As long as he stresses that to be a better diver you're going to have to dive on a regular basis, there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Zen Diving Inc.]

My hat is off to you. Questions:

1. Do you integrate the two classes to any degree or teach them back-to-back?
2. Are most students locals or tourists?
3. If locals (due to time period), do you think there would be a market for an integrated OW, AOW, Nitrox, and maybe rescue?
4. Does the watermanship skills (swimming, comfort in the water, etc) tend to be any different between people who choose your combo over others?
5. Can you characterize any traits that differentiate students between the combo and separate classes (besides time and money)?
6. Do you sense a difference in student satisfaction with the training?

Personal Opinion Alert:
We all know there are some dive shops that use the “safety card” to frighten customers into buying regulators that cost 2-5x more than they actually need. I believe that divers and the industry would be better off if they use the valid safety argument to sell a more complete, and preferably integrated, class. I bet it would be an easy sell when parents are paying for the class!

Thx! Akimbo.

To answer your questions:

1: Yes, as a NAUI Instructor I have the freedom to teach as I sit fit, when it benefits the students. In short, fully integrated.
2: Varies widely... Touristas go the tandem or passport route. Locals/ College students tend to go the combo route, depending on funds- which I work with them on.
3: I teach rescue in all my course's, so you wouldn't technically need to add that to the mix to get what your talking about. (BAS/ADV/EAN) Then (Rescue, First Aid, CPR & AED)better off separate in most cases.
4:Swim Skills, lol... 400yds swim / 900yds snorkel- Basic, Adv, etc. I could care less what they want to do or what others let them get away with...
5: Well there is the lazy guy who just wants to go diving on his honeymoon (nothing wrong with that) and not really pay attention in class and fail... Then there's students who have a respect for the ocean and want to learn more about it before jumping right in. (Who have the time) Those that don't tend to come back to learn more later. Everything else seems to fall somewhere in between... Seriously college students are my best students, most others fall into some other category. The whole trait thing seems to be leading me down the stereotype stairway I'd rather not walk down any further...
6: ABSOLUTELY!!!

 

[Akimbo]

Thx! Akimbo.

To answer your questions:…

Why do you think that so few people in the industry do as you describe? You appear to be proof that there is a market, at least partially validating my suspicion/hope. I would think that a course like this would at least be offered universally.

Well done.

 

[Zen Diving Inc.]

Why do you think that so few people in the industry do as you describe? You appear to be proof that it there is a market, at least partially validating my suspicion/hope. I would think that a course like this would at least be offered universally.

Well done.

I ask myself that same question sometimes...

---------- Post Merged at 08:04 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:04 PM ----------

Why do you think that so few people in the industry do as you describe? You appear to be proof that it there is a market, at least partially validating my suspicion/hope. I would think that a course like this would at least be offered universally.

Well done.

I ask myself that same question sometimes...

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I don't want to send this thread off-topic, but this deserved a response.



The basic rule of 'don't make yourself a casualty' does apply. But it is preceded by don't let anyone else become a casualty through your inaction.

Of course, talking to the victim... throwing them a line/float is the first recourse, but there are caveats. Firstly, that getting a line/float won't take too long. Secondly, that the victim has sufficient self-control remaining to respond to your directions (i.e. they are not truly 'panicked').

What some of the posters here realize, which you seem not to, is that panicked divers are typically unresponsive to direction. Thus, a more direct intervention is needed. That's certainly been the case in the majority of incidents I've witnessed/involved in.

If the victim remains rational...and responsive to direction, then you're providing assistance, not a rescue. We're talking about ​rescue.

Imagine that YOU defending ME...LOL.. I didn't even consider that my desrcription of my response would be controversial..It would be over in 60 seconds and they would be back on the platform before half the people noticed.