As has already been pointed out, SSI requires 25 dives and four specialty courses before certifying any diver at the AOW level. SDI has the same requirements. This is the right approach, IMHO. SDI has an "Advanced Adventurer" course that provides the student a flavor - 1 dive - of four different specialties, but does not confer AOW certification. PADI's AOW is more closely akin to this than either AOW program.
Advanced Divers too soon?..
- Thread starter New Scuba Guy
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
dumpsterDiver
Banned
- Messages
- 9,003
- Reaction score
- 4,652
- # of dives
- 2500 - 4999
It is not a joke. They have made it so that the certification card (and the title that goes with it) are nearly meaningless. Personally, I think that the more classes a new diver takes the better off they are and the less likely they are to kill themselves, particularly since we know that the first 20 or so dives are very dangerous, relative to later dives. So who cares if the titles and the cards have almost zero meaning?
I am just happy that people are getting extra supervision and experience that serves to supplement (or remediate) what I view as, deficient initial training (in many cases). The divers get extra help and training that they need and the dive shop generates income that helps to offset the loss leader OW course that some stores sell. We all agree that a much more extensive and comprehensive initial course would be benefical to a new diver who wants to dive on their own, but the market doesn't seem to want that.
The only thing that really bothers me is when I see DM and instructors who can't really dive themselves... THAT scares me....
archiebald
Contributor
I think you are cherry picking.
In the case of being able to swim, true you can do 200m or 300m test in fins and mask. To be honest though, I don't really see the point in being able to swim to be a scuba diver. How often does a scuba diver practically use swimming? They are two completely different activities - swimming is far mor difficult.
Yes, you could do it with only 50 dives but lets take a look at those dives;
* 5 dives + theory are training for OW
* 5 dives + theory are training for AOW
* Must have EFR / CPR training (to qualify for Rescue Diver)
* 5 dives + theory are training for Rescue
* 5 specialities each consisting of at least 2 training dives and theory each, sometimes more. So let's say on average 13 dives over the five courses.
So the minimum training accounts for 28 dives and probably around 100 hours or more of study, then an additional minimum of 22 dives are required.
Some shops offering the five speciality package seem to be stating the 50 logged dives must be achieved before starting the specialities so that takes the tally to 63.
As for cost, if we say roughly $300 per training course then you are talking at least $2,400 just on training course fees without all the other sundry fees which would easily double that figure even without gear purchase.
From my training, I was under the impression that based on the industry jargon that ANY dive deeper than 18m is classified as DEEP. So what is the problem with defining a Deep Diver Course as 18-30m?
When compared to what the other agencies are offering, it seems to be the norm.
Master Scuba Diver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
koozemani
Contributor
There was a recent thread on this. I've run into people at my Lds who within 6 months of being certified and with the bare minimum number of dives signing up for the dm course. How are they going to oversee other divers when they're barely able to manage themselves under water.
I do not mean that as a blanket statement for everyone. In sure you're an excellent diver.
I congratulate anyone who tries to improve themselves in any endeavor. My beef is with the training agencies that set the minimum standards, not the poor divers who must live with the system. I believe the minimum should include OW, AOW, and Nitrox… or more. Aside from a decent exposure to diving physics and physiology, I think most people need the time these classes take for a lot of important stuff to sink in. The first 20 dives wouldn’t be so dangerous if the minimum level of training weren't so inadequate. This period was not so dangerous when classes for basic certification was longer before about 1980.
The problem with using over-inflated titles is it imparts an expectation and belief in all too many people that they are “advanced” or “masters”. The standards are so minimal that you can be a Master Scuba Diver never having made an unsupervised dive. Expectations matter.
Absolutely true… in theory. The problem is many of us have seen certified divers who are non-swimmers that are so afraid of losing a fin or mask that they are primed for panic… as-in leaving half of the brain onshore. Aside from being dangerous, that level of insecurity isn’t all that much fun — sort of the whole point of a recreational activity.
OK I’ve looked at them. Instead of being a barely competent neophyte you could be a total rookie no matter what combination of courses you choose to meet the minimum standard. Historically, Master designates the most respected and accomplished people at the top of their profession. Granted, some societies used the term for certain business owners, but that is not the dominant understanding in North America and most of Europe.
Last edited:
archiebald
Contributor
I think it depends on your viewpoint.
Somebody could pass OW, do a thousand dives, never take any more education and never have the technical knowledge and practical experience that is covered in the courses leading up to the "Master".
Or someone can take all the training courses, be primed full of knowledge and practice and be a far better diver at 50 dives, in both theoretical and practical over the 1,000 dive veteran.
Just having more dives under your belt doesn't necessarily make you a better diver, just in the way that having a nice new shiny cert card doesn't.
The same thing conundrum comes up in other aspects of life. What about the university graduate versus the twenty year veteran in his field? Who is more qualified or the better person?
Finally, PADI clearly states that the "master diver" designation is the highest NON-PROFESIONAL qualification in their RECREATIONAL training tree. I don't why that the name should be such a problem for something that is just a sport and hobby.
As I said in a similar thread recently, at least in the PADI curriculum, I think doing AOW when you have somewhere around 5-10 dives post-OW is ideal. On my first few dives post-OW, I was still so fixated on all of the things I had to be mindful of that I don't think I could have absorbed that much about Deep, Night, Navigation or anything else. But AOW was absolutely useful to me, as I never would have been comfortable doing a night dive, for example, if I hadn't done it first as part of AOW. At the other end of the spectrum, I think that if one wait until he has 25 or more dives under his belt to take AOW, he might already have ventured into a night dive or deep dive (without relevant training). In summary, I think AOW has maximum impact/value when one is about 5-10 dives post-OW or otherwise at the point that one feels comfortable just diving.
dumpsterDiver
Banned
- Messages
- 9,003
- Reaction score
- 4,652
- # of dives
- 2500 - 4999
Your profile lists 0 to 25 dives... If that is correct, I am curious as to how you have arrived at the opinion that the "50" diver may be far better than the "1,000" diver?
That is the difficult part for instructors. They have no guarantee that you will ever come back to learn what you really need to be safe. Their only option is try to set rules that are not fully understood. A single class that combines OW, AOW, and Nitrox allows it to be integrated, eliminating the valid requirement to concentrate on rules over understanding. Most of all, it provides enough time that students think about what they learned and can ask questions at the next class to solidify understanding.
One of the many problems is dive shops don’t know how to sell such a long and expensive course. They only sign up people and hope they come back for another merit badge. The reality is divers who lack the understanding of why they should not dive deeper, on wrecks, in caves, etc are more likely to do really stupid things.
Last edited:
OP
New Scuba Guy
Registered
I like that idea too! I feel that one should have at least a reasonable level of competency before trying to move up to an "Advanced" rating in any endeavor. You don't go for a 2 mile walk on the local rails to trails and then pronounce yourself capable of backpacking the entire Appalachian Trail. After seeing these people in my classes, I don't think I'd want them rescuing a drowning muskrat, let alone me! I know that NAUI has a pretty comprehensive cirriculum of skills and learning materials one needs to complete satisfactorily to achieve Divemaster rating. I'm the kind who doesn't want it handed to me. I want to learn it, have a thorough understanding of the physiology and psychology of diving so that I know what I'm doing and having the sense of having earned something. Unfortunately, in today's society of instant gratification and the rewarding of mediocrity, the agencies will keep handing out the rewards without someone putting in the necessary work.
Similar threads
