Advanced Divers too soon?..

[New Scuba Guy]

:shocked2::shocked2:Am I the only one who has the complaint about newbie divers going right to Advanced Diver Certification too quickly. I became NAUI Openwater Certified in 2010 and when I expressed interest in working on my NAUI Advanced Openwater, my Dive Instructor informed me that he wouldn't consider taking me through the course until I had at least 25 logged dives in my book,best advice I could have gotten. He told me that he'd tell that to anyone he took through NAUI Openwater. Get
the experience, practice the skills; buoyancy, breathing, relaxing underwater, buddy breathing, etc. I waited until I had 50 dives in my logbook.
Last month I took my NAUI Advanced Openwater Certification. 7 of the students in my classes informed me that they only had their 5 checkout PADI Openwater dives in their logbooks. 5 of them told me they were "Rescue Divers" for their local Fire Department near Pittsburgh, PA! I lost count how many times I was kicked or punched by these "divers" as they flailed around underwater. They were losing weights and pouches, bouyancy control was non-exitstent. They were down to 500# of air in less than 20 minutes and we hadn't even left the platforms! And as far as using a compass, they had the deer in the headlights look.
I had questioned my Dive Instructor about his edict about 25 dive minimum and how these folks could take Advanced Openwater with only 5 dives. He said that if they were NAUI Certified, he would have turned them away, but since they were PADI, he had to take them through the course?
I read with interest, various postings concerning diving fatalities at Dutch Springs where I do most of my diving. I firmly believe that the majority of dive "Accidents" are preventable by continous diving and practice. Most of the time when I dive at Dutch I tend to be the one with the most expereience and that's only 75 logged dives. But virtually every 1st dive of the day, we start at a platform and we practice buoyancy, relaxed breathing, buddy breathing, mask clearing and/or removal. A few weeks ago I had a group that one individual had all the latest and greatest dive gear. His regs alone were worth more than all my wife's dive gear and mine combined. When we got in the water he froze in panic. Got him out and stayed with him for awhile. We descended together and just enjoyed a nice. leisurely dive at about 20-25 feet deep once he got himself together and acclimated. Found out later he was PADI Advanced with 11 total dives to his credit.
I guess all I'm saying is that maybe some divers need to consider getting more quality underwater time, work on their dive skills, and enjoy the sport more before trying to "Advance". Anybody agree? Disagree? Thanks

 

[Akimbo]

I have a different view. Divers trained in the US (outside the US Navy) should probably go through OW, AOW, and Nitrox just to get a decent understanding of diving physics and physiology. Rescue is probably a class to have some time in-between. It still won’t make you a competent diver but provides enough understanding to keep from hurting yourself before you gain the in-water experience.

The word advanced is a misnomer. It means they provide information to enhance the even more inadequate OW training.

 

[rhwestfall]

that philosophy doesn't fit the economic model of a dive shop......

I've now opened the flood gates .....

***EDIT***

DANG! Got taken away from my post with a customer, and ended up #2.....

 

[New Scuba Guy]

My wife and I went Whale Shark Diving in Belize this past June. We decided to rearrange our diving in that we did our Reef Diving early in the week and the Whale Shark Dives mid and late week. on both our Whale Shark Dive days we had divers who had only their 5 PADI Checkout Dives to their credit. If any of you have dove Belize at Gladden Spit, you know that it's not easy diving. Nothing but clear blue water, no reefs, walls or wrecks for reference; only 2000 feet of water below you. Most dives are at 80 feet or deeper (we went to slightly deeper than 100 feet on the last day) and there are strong currents to contend with. Not really the type of conditions for inexperienced divers. I dove with my wife and 2 other very experienced divers amongst those who spent more energy paddling withn their arms than kicking with their legs and yoy-yoing around in search of any kind of buoyancy. When we spotted our first Whale Shark about 25 minutes into the dive, the newbies never had a chance to witness the spectacle. They were down to 500# 5 minutes before that. I can appreciate their enthusiasm, but as the saying goes "there are old divers and there are bold divers, but there are very few old, bold divers."

---------- Post Merged at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 04:40 PM ----------

I know my Dive Instructor said that Advanced Openwater won't make you proficient in any other skills, but serves as an introduction to different dive skills. I want to work toward a Divemaster Rating, but I know that won't happen fast. And i'm OK with that. I'm 53 years old and enjoy the sport. But don't you feel that new divers should gain a level of competency before they try to advance . Maybe peak buoyancy skills at least.

---------- Post Merged at 04:49 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 04:40 PM ----------

PADI-Put Another Dollar In.

 

[Scuba_Noob]

The major problem is that it's a business and that courses make money and attract customers. I find it outrageous that someone could be a PADI rescue diver with less than 15 dives, though.

However, I think that the skills in the AOW and Rescue classes are important for divers to learn early on in their dive 'careers'. AOW should be done around 15-30 dives, and Rescue should be done around 40-60 dives. Why? There is a lot of knowledge that could save your life and another diver's, including the rescue skills and other teachings.

Nevertheless, starting another course without being at least decently versed in the skills learned in the prerequisite course (or even open water skills) is just going to ingrain bad habits.

 

[Tigerman]

I dont think there IS a "too soon" for the AOW course, atleast from PADI.
Its designed to be an extension of the OW course, experiencing a bit more and different dives under the supervision of a professional and it does that exactly the way its intended.
The only thing that might potentailly be bad about it is the 30m depth limit you gain from AOW by default, but in the big scale of things rec diving has proven to be pretty safe and we cant make Darwin COMPLETELY out of work, can we?

 

[koozemani]

I like the SSI model for AOW. Complete 4 specialties and have 25 dives. Granted, whatever specialties you choose will affect your proficiency in the water. I finally earned mine at 40+ dives. My wife will end up earning hers with over 40 dives. I feel we got more out of "earning" our AOW this way then taking a one time class. Neither of us is by any means an advanced diver, but we are a lot more comfortable with our buoyancy and trim then we were 20 dives ago.

 

[archiebald]

I did PADI OW = 5 dives, plus I did another 5 dives. Then I did my PADI AOW = 5 dives followed by another 4 dives.

As mentioned above somewhere, the AOW just felt like an extension of the OW training so for me it felt a perfect balance.

But every diver is different, some will "get it" far quicker than others.

Now, doing Rescue Diver for example, I agree better to wait 20+ dives

 

[Akimbo]

…I find it outrageous that someone could be a PADI rescue diver with less than 15 dives, though...

You can be a Master Scuba Diver with 50 dives at 12 years old. All of those dives can be supervised in other courses. In fact, you don't even have to know how to swim.
Master Scuba Diver Rating Courses - Advanced Open Water Diving - PADI Scuba Dive Training Organization

This is an organization that has a course called Deep Diver: Learn techniques for diving in the deeper ranges of 18-30 metres / 60-100 feet

Learn Popular Specialty Scuba Diving Courses from Enriched Air Nitrox to Deep Diving and more at PADI Scuba Diving Training Organization

I fear that marketing weenies and lawyers have diminished all the major diver training organizations to the point they are a bad joke.

 

[rhwestfall]

For what they are now in SOME programs, it is just a very minor extension of OW..... and as some have said, should be part of the comprehensive certification.

Comparison:

I achieved a YMCA "Scuba Diver" card after 10 weeks of two academic classroom sessions and a pool session weekly. Had to pass quite a significant swimming test just to be in the class. The open water portion was 7 dives, with the last one being completely planned and executed by myself and my buddy... all reviewed by the instructor. I believe that 1/4 of the class may not have achieved its certification cards...... no mention of imposed depth limits except for 130' sport diving limits tied to certification. Also included planning decompression diving for some preliminary background..... oh, all off tables.

I got an AOW card 4 years later with another agency (was really a "refresher"), Rescue 23 years later (again, basically a "refresher"), and I am completing a Master Diver certification now that so far has been.... you guessed it... a "refresher".

Hardly what is seen today...