Accident at Vortex Springs 8-20-10

[mike_s]

and any time you go into a cave yours will be as well as I am confident you will not be entering that cave with the intent of not leaving it. If you don't leave it then others will be in peril when they put their lives in danger to find you but hopefully for your family and your friends the comments on this board will not attack you personally nor will they attack the friends who defend you.

If I went into a cave without the proper training and died, I'd expect my friends here would say about me that:

"He was a dumb ass for going in there without the proper training and experience". ​

I think they'd be spot on.

 

[jtivat]

This is exactly my point, the thread should be for accident analysis, not the condemnation of a man who clearly made a mistake.

The same way you have written to defend your friends is the same way I have written to defend Ben. But there are those here who have brutalized his character and his personality and who have strayed far from analysis of the accident. Their opinions of who he is validate nothing, but certainly their opinions validate everything about the safety and proper procedures of your sport and the comments should be left to that alone.

These threads do get out of hand and things are said that should not be but that is how they all go. It is also why people warned family and friends not to read it. There is no way to stop it, this one has not been bad they get much worse. People get upset when divers die diving beyond there training.

 

[iztok]

SM caves are absolutely no joke. It's why I hate the idea of OW SM courses, or transitioning divers to SM so early, it's super easy to get places you don't belong.

This video was intense! I *know* I never want to go to such places *ever*

But I like the idea of side-mounts for OW on vacation as a replacement for doubles as it is hard to rent doubles.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

If I went into a cave without the proper training and died, I'd expect my friends here would say about me that:

"He was a dumb ass for going in there without the proper training and experience". ​

I think they'd be spot on.

Mike, I would call you that

 

[mike_s]

Mike, I would call you that

That's what good friends are for!

 

[netmage]

If I went into a cave without the proper training and died, I'd expect my friends here would say about me that:

"He was a dumb ass for going in there without the proper training and experience". ​

I think they'd be spot on.

Mike, I would call you that

Ditto....

 

[Cave Diver]

Mike, I would call you that

+1

In fact, you don't even need to go into a cave Mike and I'll still do that for you.

 

[Salient]

Here is one post:



The same information has also been posted on other forums by people that are there and it has been posted that his own log book details him doing so.

I respect that your friend may have done a lot of good things in his life and it's difficult to hear some things that tarnish that reputation. I've have spoken with people privately, both on the phone and electronically that have confirmed this information and more.

Thank you Cave Diver, I guess the difficulty I am personally having with that thread is that it is stated much after the fact, whereas the original poster stated that he heard with his own ears the woman state that a male had checked out the key and not returned it. Certainly this leaves an opening for a person other than Ben to have done so but it seems unlikely given that if it wasn't him then the key would have been returned.

It also seems at least reasonable that if the key was in fact given to him and that if he was not certified to have it, that the owner now recognizes the liability of giving it to him and would be vehemently denying having done so. Anyone, no matter how qualified to dive caves cannot speak on this fact because they would not have been there to witness the alleged key exchange. The only people present for that would be the person giving it and the person receiving it plus maybe a few EMPLOYEES of the owner. If giving it is now denied, and the receiving of it cannot be verified by Ben, well then the next and only credible witness to the exchange is the poster who was present and heard the owner state that the key was given to him. The only way to refute this is to pull the public record and or discuss the matter with the poster who heard the conversation in person.

I also want to state that I am not defending Ben's dive, I only want to express that while passions on the subject may run high, as it does with the lives being risked by your friends, to condemn a man in such a way that attacks his personality is just as wrong as attacking his rescuer and searchers.

 

[Airleron]

Salient: Every time we lose a fellow diver, it hits all of us hard, cavers, rec divers, bubble blowers, etc. When accidents happen and a fatality results, I often think "how can I learn from this". This is why this board is so valuable.

I would never presume to know Ben on a personal level, because I don't. Most of us reading and writing in here do not also. But, as the saying goes, Actions Speak Louder Than Words.

I have read here that Ben was involved or headed up an organ donation organization, and that speaks volumes about his giving personality and desire to help others. This is the side of Ben that you know. OTOH, his actions on Wednesday speak of another side of him. Possibly, the Throw Caution to the Wind side. This is the side of Ben that divers now know and he is now putting other's lives at risk. I feel strongly that Ben would not have wanted this, but out of respect for his family and friends, strangers have been attempting very dangerous things to give closure. I respect them immensely for that.

If this thread were about my family member or close friend and I was not a diver, I couldn't read it. Please try not to be offended by this discussion. We are all heavy hearted over this tragedy.

 

[netmage]

It also seems at least reasonable that if the key was in fact given to him and that if he was not certified to have it, that the owner now recognizes the liability of giving it to him and would be vehemently denying having done so. Anyone, no matter how qualified to dive caves cannot speak on this fact because they would not have been there to witness the alleged key exchange. The only people present for that would be the person giving it and the person receiving it plus maybe a few EMPLOYEES of the owner. If giving it is now denied, and the receiving of it cannot be verified by Ben, well then the next and only credible witness to the exchange is the poster who was present and heard the owner state that the key was given to him. The only way to refute this is to pull the public record and or discuss the matter with the poster who heard the conversation in person.

He knew it was over his head, and no one pushed Ben into the water that day...
Any liability and blame lies directly on one persons shoulders...