Accident at Vortex Springs 8-20-10

[Cave Diver]

Watch this video about 2:17 in. It will show you how tight you can get without removing tanks. These guys are removing tanks, so it's smaller than that.

And keep in mind that video is taken in a decent flow and a sand/gravel bottom. Imagine what happens to visibility in low flow clay...

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

And its important to note that in a wetsuit you can wiggle through smaller stuff than in a drysuit.

 

[Cave Diver]

It further seems to me that the largest body of discussion on the topic of the gate is nothing more than the regurgitation of something someone else has stated previously, going all the way back to the news conference and statement by Mark wherein he publicly stated that the lock had been jimmied. The fact is the lock may have indeed been jimmied but it is also true that the owner stated that Ben checked the key out on Wednesday. The lock may have been tampered with prior to Ben's arrival at the gate. I have also read that it was the hinge that was tampered with, what I would like to know is does anyone have any direct firsthand knowledge of exactly what happened to the gate or lock? And by first hand I do not mean a phone call, text, email or any other acquisition of this knowledge by any means other than looking at it with your own eyes or touching it with your own hands?

This has already been addressed, confirmed and posted by those that were on scene and have first hand knowledge of it. I know most of these people personally and have no reason to think they made up such a statement.

 

[mike_s]

[snip]


In closing I would simply like to say that for the next man who wishes to attack this man, whom you do not know, please first post the resume of your life and tell us all how it justifies you in casting the first stone because as far as I know there isn’t a man walking this earth that has the right to judge this man but most assuredly hasn’t the right to justify or comment based on hearsay evidence, i.e. the tampering of the gate. If you can’t or won’t post this resume then at the least post what good in this world you have done that justifies the wanton hubris you possess in saying such things as you have about Ben. At the very least if you wish to state your opinion then you should at least have the courage of your convictions and be able to state them outside of your peer group, in other words come to Ben’s memorial and state your opinion there as well as well as what give you the right to say it. Absent that, you should all leave your discussions to accident prevention measures for the future of your sport and leave the comments of who he is as a person to those who know something about the person.

ya know... right now there are a LOT of qualified people down there going into tight restricted passages trying to recover the body of someone who they didn't know.... who had no training or business being in there.

they know nothing about this person, but they are risking their lives to recover his body.

just something to think about.

 

[ucfdiver]

Some of us are a bit confused by the nearly non-stop barrage of the accusations that Ben tampered with the lock or gate; however there was at least one person on site when the accident scene started as evidenced by the very first posting on the other forum. The poster clearly states, without hesitation and as a first party witness, the following: "Just then the new owner operator lady started talking and she stated the key to the gate was checked out on Wednesday by a male and it was never returned" It is implied that she has made this statement to a deputy sheriff, if so it is now a matter of public record and I will be filing to have the report sent to me straight away.

This overlooked fact is important for surely it speaks to the character of the person. It is one thing to overestimate one’s ability, but it is another matter altogether to willfully break the gate and enter anyway. If Ben checked the key out then obviously his intent was to enter and enter in the proper procedural way, if he lacked proper experience to do so then he should not have been given the key. If he forced the lock, this accident is then and only then what most of you have stated.

Having now read all posts by the original witness/first poster, I do not believe he has a propensity to embellish nor willfully lie therefore I for one believe what he has said, further at the time of his posting he was first on scene before any facts were known therefore there would have been no need or thought to cover up the fact that Ben legitimately checked the key out. Fast forward to now and there certainly would be a reason to cover this up as a man with no proper certification should not have been allowed to do so and in doing so negligence by the owner of the spring has been established.

It further seems to me that the largest body of discussion on the topic of the gate is nothing more than the regurgitation of something someone else has stated previously, going all the way back to the news conference and statement by Mark wherein he publicly stated that the lock had been jimmied. The fact is the lock may have indeed been jimmied but it is also true that the owner stated that Ben checked the key out on Wednesday. The lock may have been tampered with prior to Ben's arrival at the gate. I have also read that it was the hinge that was tampered with, what I would like to know is does anyone have any direct firsthand knowledge of exactly what happened to the gate or lock? And by first hand I do not mean a phone call, text, email or any other acquisition of this knowledge by any means other than looking at it with your own eyes or touching it with your own hands?

The first and mostly like scenario is that the original poster is exactly correct when he states that the new owner told the sheriff that Ben checked the key out and further that the owner is now fully aware of the liability of this statement and is doing everything possible to retract it and miss direct.

It is also true that if Ben did not in fact "jimmy" the lock that he is not quite the reckless individual that he is being painted as. He has done a whole lot more for his fellow man than most of his detractors on this board and his mark on this world will not be left in the cold darkness of a lonely cave, it won’t be left by how well he has expressed his point on an obscure forum read by those who leave their marks on this world in a cold dark and lonely cave either, it will be left by those who know this man, and by those who love this man and by those who have life today through his foundation.

In closing I would simply like to say that for the next man who wishes to attack this man, whom you do not know, please first post the resume of your life and tell us all how it justifies you in casting the first stone because as far as I know there isn’t a man walking this earth that has the right to judge this man but most assuredly hasn’t the right to justify or comment based on hearsay evidence, i.e. the tampering of the gate. If you can’t or won’t post this resume then at the least post what good in this world you have done that justifies the wanton hubris you possess in saying such things as you have about Ben. At the very least if you wish to state your opinion then you should at least have the courage of your convictions and be able to state them outside of your peer group, in other words come to Ben’s memorial and state your opinion there as well as well as what give you the right to say it. Absent that, you should all leave your discussions to accident prevention measures for the future of your sport and leave the comments of who he is as a person to those who know something about the person.

Dude, just hush. You've never been in a cave, nor do you know what you're talking about. Your friend died going well beyond standard acceptable practices. My (many of our) friends are risking their lives to go get what is essentially just a dead body, for the family. Everything that I've said, Kevin has said, Rob has said, Matt has said, is information obtained from individuals on site, or they were on site themselves.

Not sure what you want to know about my diving resume. I have over 200 total cave dives, 23 different systems, some in SM, most in BM, some penetrations over a mile....and I'm a complete n00b compared to the guys it takes to go get your friend who wasn't even trained. It will be YEARS before I even think of pushing a cave like this one. I've done some dives that brought me to beautiful cave, that's all that matters to me.

I'm sorry for your loss, but you'd be better off in the memorial thread. And no, I wont come to Ben's memorial service to talk accident analysis, because it's not the appropriate place for it. The accident analysis portions of diving forums, and in person with peers is. It sounds like Ben lived a wonderful life and touched several people. I hope you guys share those moments at the memorial service, as well as the SB memorial thread.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Dude, just hush. You've never been in a cave, nor do you know what you're talking about. Your friend died going well beyond standard acceptable practices. My friends are risking their lives to go get what is essentially just a dead body, for the family. Everything that I've said, Kevin has said, Rob has said, Matt has said, is information obtained from individuals on site, or they were on site themselves.

Not sure what you want to know about my diving resume. I have over 200 total cave dives, 23 different systems, some in SM, most in BM, some penetrations over a mile....and I'm a complete n00b compared to the guys it takes to go get your friend who wasn't even trained. It will be YEARS before I even think of pushing a cave like this one.

I'm sorry for your loss, but you'd be better off in the memorial thread.

Amen James. Too many we know are risking their lives.

 

[Salient]

This has already been addressed, confirmed and posted by those that were on scene and have first hand knowledge of it. I know most of these people personally and have no reason to think they made up such a statement.

Where in the thread has something been posted disputing the validity of the original poster stating that the he heard the the owner state that the key was checked out?

 

[ScubaNurse758]

In response to Salient:

Coming from a medical background, I know that often family and friends of a deceased person have very bare emotions and do not want to hear anything negative about a recently lost loved one, whether that person was at fault or not. I know it is also common to want to cast blame in any direction other than the deceased. However, something you need to consider is this: Regardless of whether he was given a key to the gate or not, the fact remains that HE WAS NOT CERTIFIED NOR QUALIFIED for the dive that he attempted. In ignoring these facts, he, whether intentionally or unintentionally, put the lives of any would-be rescuers at risk when he chose to dive beyond the limits of his certifications. Arguments/accusations can be thrown as to who sinned first, the diver or the dive shop (if the dive shop even did anything wrong), but the end result is the same: a diver- unqualified for this dive - died, and may or may not be recovered due to his actions. I understand that emotions dictate that you dont want to hear anything ill of him, but the fact remains what he did was wrong, and that is a fact that cannot be ignored nor excused by any previous acts of humanitarianism. My sympathy and prayers to the family.

 

[dannobee]

Where in the thread has something been posted disputing the validity of the original poster stating that the he heard the the owner state that the key was checked out?

They also found his logbook stating he's jimmied the lock on previous occasions.


Who knows if someone else checked out the key on Wednesday besides your friend and forgot to bring it back?

 

[Docc]

Some of us are a bit confused because we are not divers, don't understand diving, we just knew Ben

Fixed that for ya....

I don't think anyone is saying Ben wasn't a great human being. It is however possible though that some of his poor decisions (strictly conjecture on my part as I was not diving with him) is putting others in danger trying to recover his remains. We talk about what went wrong, what decision making was poor, what equipment worked or did not work, etc. in hopes that it doesn't happen to us or someone we know.