Accident at Vortex Springs 8-20-10

[Salient]

I'm sorry for your loss, but you'd be better off in the memorial thread. And no, I wont come to Ben's memorial service to talk accident analysis, because it's not the appropriate place for it. The accident analysis portions of diving forums, and in person with peers is. It sounds like Ben lived a wonderful life and touched several people. I hope you guys share those moments at the memorial service, as well as the SB memorial thread.

This is exactly my point, the thread should be for accident analysis, not the condemnation of a man who clearly made a mistake.

The same way you have written to defend your friends is the same way I have written to defend Ben. But there are those here who have brutalized his character and his personality and who have strayed far from analysis of the accident. Their opinions of who he is validate nothing, but certainly their opinions validate everything about the safety and proper procedures of your sport and the comments should be left to that alone.

 

[ucfdiver]

This is exactly my point, the thread should be for accident analysis, not the condemnation of a man who clearly made a mistake.

The same way you have written to defend your friends is the same way I have written to defend Ben. But there are those here who have brutalized his character and his personality and who have strayed far from analysis of the accident. Their opinions of who he is validate nothing, but certainly their opinions validate everything about the safety and proper procedures of your sport and the comments should be left to that alone.

If there were a way to limit this thread to posting from ONLY qualified individuals, I would love to see that done, but there's not. Lots of good info has come out, you just have to sift through the bad.

 

[mike_s]

This is exactly my point, the thread should be for accident analysis, not the condemnation of a man who clearly made a mistake.

The same way you have written to defend your friends is the same way I have written to defend Ben. But there are those here who have brutalized his character and his personality and who have strayed far from analysis of the accident. Their opinions of who he is validate nothing, but certainly their opinions validate everything about the safety and proper procedures of your sport and the comments should be left to that alone.

The difference is that his actions are now putting others lives at risk....


you need to step back and take a big look at that.

 

[Salient]

If there were a way to limit this thread to posting from ONLY qualified individuals, I would love to see that done, but there's not. Lots of good info has come out, you just have to sift through the bad.

James I appreciate your comment, as well as those of Cave Diver and nearly all of the others. The few I take exception to are specifically those that attack him as a person. It is reckless to say what his log book states publicly, especially if you didn't read it it first hand. People get confused on facts very easily and usually a "fact" is also peppered with personal opinion. His friends and family are reading this thread, and to attack him personally is as offensive as your belief that they would attack your friends who are risking their lives trying to find him. They simply would not.

 

[Salient]

The difference is that his actions are now putting others lives at risk....


you need to step back and take a big look at that.

and any time you go into a cave yours will be as well as I am confident you will not be entering that cave with the intent of not leaving it. If you don't leave it then others will be in peril when they put their lives in danger to find you but hopefully for your family and your friends the comments on this board will not attack you personally nor will they attack the friends who defend you.

 

[ScubaNurse758]

Again, multiple, MULTIPLE pleas were made to family and friends of this individual to not continue reading this thread and to stick to the memorial thread. Now maybe you see why.

 

[Cave Diver]

Where in the thread has something been posted disputing the validity of the original poster stating that the he heard the the owner state that the key was checked out?

Here is one post:

Organized recovery efforts are done. There is evidence in the cave that indicates the location of the body. There may be one more dive conducted there to attempt to visualize the body, but body extraction is not planned. It is too small to conduct a safe recovery.

The recovery divers are all wearing dry suits. The diver was in a wet suit. The recovery divers have been diving trimix. The diver was NOT diving trimix. While this dive could be conducted safely by a trained AND experienced cave diver, and IMO would be safer solo, this is a very advanced dive that requires advanced training and experience. The diver had neither. He had no formal training in overhead or decompression diving. Basically, this was an OW diver who went way beyond his training and experience levels and paid the highest price for this error in judgment. He was not given a key to the gate, but managed to get past it anyway. I know he had been warned about the dangers of cave diving and the need to get the appropriate training. He chose to ignore that warning.

The same information has also been posted on other forums by people that are there and it has been posted that his own log book details him doing so.

I respect that your friend may have done a lot of good things in his life and it's difficult to hear some things that tarnish that reputation. I've have spoken with people privately, both on the phone and electronically that have confirmed this information and more.

Just about every cave diver reading or participating in this thread has lost a friend or someone they know at some point or other in this sport. We know your pain and frustration. As harsh as it is to say it, in just about every case it's because they screwed up and paid the ultimate price. It's an unforgiving sport to those that don't follow the rules or think they don't apply to them.

 

[bigken462]

I haven’t done a lot of posting recently however I have religiously though read these forums day and night to feed my fix on diving. But after reading post 260 I would like to put something out there for any money hungry lawyers in the future.

Should I be foolish enough to do something that ultimately cost me my life – and while doing so knowingly break every basic concept of training that I have had in the past that should have given me the slightest idea that I was not supposed to be doing whatever it was that lead to my fate, then I dare some money hungry lawyer to place blame on those around me. Obviously you must make a penny or two by placing blame.

I would hope my friends would have a beer over my name and speak of the good times. And if saving my sorry ass to get me out of the pickle for which I placed myself in so much as jeopardizes their safety. Well all I can say is, I can push tulips from a cave as easily as I can a coffin.

And FWIW my resume includes 21 years of seeing death face to face, seeing the consequences of decisions like these, seeing all to often the family members who never got to say goodbye, and many-times the last words of my patients before they passed. I am sorry for the loss of your friend - or potential client. But at the end of the day, he is where is is now by no other means that his on effort.


Ken

 

[netmage]

At the end of the day, there is nothing new to be learned from this incident. Just like the most recent Eagles Nest fatality the divers went out of their way to break the guidelines and rules that the fatalities that came before have taught us, and failed to re-arrange their cotton when advised the path the were on would lead to a single totally avoidable conclusion....

"You have many questions, and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant."

 

[ScubaSteve]

and any time you go into a cave yours will be as well

But by taking the time to get the proper training and to follow the rules/safety protocol, you make every effort to avoid ending up where Ben is today. Ben did not do that. That is where people are coming from.