Abandoned at Sea - Sun June 26, 2005 - The Ibis, Dania Beach, Hollywood Fl.
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hamilton
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Interesting thread, with interesting opinions.
I'd add that in my line of work (auditor in a large multinational), I see a lot of instances where rules/commonsense/laws/principles are 'broken' for all sorts of reasons. Some are trivial, some are not. In most cases, there is an 'excuse' or justification.
The key thing at my company is that we _have_ auditors, and it is _our_ job to provide independent verification that the company policies are being followed. This is a business expense.... but one (I like to think) we take seriously. In some areas (e.g. finance) there is a legal requirement to ensure that certain standards are followed - in other areas (health and safety) the legality is backed up with a company ethical policy.
Point is: it is the companies decision/ethos/approach to take reasonable steps to ensure adequate safety. If we don't do this, we lose money, or customers, or lives.....
Other companies, in other fields, may consider this unnecessary.
This forum, and others like it, provide a valuable service in increasing the knowledge of customers about (in this case) dive companies.... and we will vote with our fins....
IMHO, if a company is this lax about _simple_, visible, and important controls, I'd hate to know what goes on behind the scenes....
(as an aside, I've been 'left behind' once, and have been on a boat that picked up a 'lost' snorkeler... in a country where the 'Open Water' movie was based, and where the movie had recently been released)
h.
I'd add that in my line of work (auditor in a large multinational), I see a lot of instances where rules/commonsense/laws/principles are 'broken' for all sorts of reasons. Some are trivial, some are not. In most cases, there is an 'excuse' or justification.
The key thing at my company is that we _have_ auditors, and it is _our_ job to provide independent verification that the company policies are being followed. This is a business expense.... but one (I like to think) we take seriously. In some areas (e.g. finance) there is a legal requirement to ensure that certain standards are followed - in other areas (health and safety) the legality is backed up with a company ethical policy.
Point is: it is the companies decision/ethos/approach to take reasonable steps to ensure adequate safety. If we don't do this, we lose money, or customers, or lives.....
Other companies, in other fields, may consider this unnecessary.
This forum, and others like it, provide a valuable service in increasing the knowledge of customers about (in this case) dive companies.... and we will vote with our fins....
IMHO, if a company is this lax about _simple_, visible, and important controls, I'd hate to know what goes on behind the scenes....
(as an aside, I've been 'left behind' once, and have been on a boat that picked up a 'lost' snorkeler... in a country where the 'Open Water' movie was based, and where the movie had recently been released)
h.
Randy43068
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bgi:
that it was the captian of this particualr dive boat who's actions caused harm to his own business.
Scubaboard divers are discussing, and exploring issues surrounding the actions of this boat - Ibis. Would you suggest that no one discuss the egregious oversight of safety procedures from such a well known dive operator?
Well Rick, I didn't want to be the first to say it but I have to agree with you. While there is no excuse for leaving someone behind when there are so many options for tracking divers who are on and off the boat leaving someone behind here in the Ft. Lauderdale/Miami area is not like leaving someone behind off the coast of New Jersey. Even on the deepest dives around here you're still well within sight of land maybe a mile or so off shore. Even I could swim that distance if I had to and there are always other boats around that you could get a ride from. In fact that is usually the problem in this area, you have to keep a good eye out for boats when you're on the surface because they are everywhere.
While I can't forgive the crew of the Ibis for such incompentence I personally don't see the "Life Threatening" side of all this. If it had happened some place where the dive sites were 20 miles off shore then I would be more inclined to agree with the fact that it was a serious situation.
Just my 2 bubbles worth.
While I can't forgive the crew of the Ibis for such incompentence I personally don't see the "Life Threatening" side of all this. If it had happened some place where the dive sites were 20 miles off shore then I would be more inclined to agree with the fact that it was a serious situation.
Just my 2 bubbles worth.
MoonWrasse
Contributor
Skin cancer risk from bobing in the ocean.Rick Murchison:
You could sue for breach of contract, as the boat operator took the $ and decided halfway that they didn't want to provide the service (i.e. a return ride home).
Sue for fraud, as the other actions of the operators seem to indicate there was intent, as they've shown no remorse.
Point is the operators don't care. Suing would make them care. As much as Americans disdain lawsuits, including moi, it beats to heck the way things are done in other parts of the globe to settle such affairs, which is deadly.
Let me clarify...Padipro:
There are two issues (1) Had Don and his wife suffered some damage or personal injury or loss - then there would be grounds for a serious lawsuit. As it turned out they were inconvenienced, and any sane jury wouldn't award enough to cover the expense of the suit. A lawsuit under the actual circumstances here is preposterous.
(2) The potential for damage, personal injury and loss from the actions of Ibis' crew was tremendous. They should be (a) repentent, and (b) change their behavior (procedures) to eliminate the hazard inherent in the head-count system. If they lied to the Coast Guard, they should also (c) be fined and the captain disciplined.
From the posts of those who have been out on Ibis since this event, it appears that (a) their repentence was only lip deep, (b) they have not changed their behavior and the hazard still exists, and (c) they did lie to the Coast Guard.
As I said earlier, I've emailed Ibis' parent shop alerting them to this thread. I have no confirmation thay got the email. If any of you know 'em you might point 'em in this direction - they may not take a look unless business falls off, but I think we have a duty to let them know they're being discussed so they can either weigh in with any pertinent facts - or, hopefully, to let us know they've actually changed the way they account for divers on Ibis to eliminate the possibility of leaving anyone behind again.
In the meantime, based on what info I have here, they're on my "no-dive" list.
Rick
Well, since everyone else got to toss in his/her two cents' worth:
1. Echoing several posts, there is NO excuse for leaving a diver(s) behind.
2. Personally, I appreciate someone naming names in this type of "offense", which is one of -- if not the -- most serious failings that I can imagine for a dive boat. And...See item 1.
3. There are a boatload of divers -- IMHO, most casual divers, who are what most of us are -- who would have a very, very difficult time swimming a mile on the surface in the ocean. Being able to see the shore is a lot different than being able to get there. Accordingly, leaving a diver behind is inherently dangerous and life-threatening, no matter where it occurs. And... see item 1.
4. Generally, the only people who are hot to file a lawsuit are people who haven't been in one. And it doesn't make much difference whether you're plaintiff or defendant. The best case still breeds a mess that even the most ardent plaintiff often wishes he/she had never started. It's even worse if one is in a lawsuit in a state (or even a city) where one doesn't live. In short, a lawsuit is a action of last resort, and any decent lawyer will say exactly that.
5. Even if someone won a lawsuit in these circumstances, it's likely to be the operation's insurance carrier that pays the claim.
1. Echoing several posts, there is NO excuse for leaving a diver(s) behind.
2. Personally, I appreciate someone naming names in this type of "offense", which is one of -- if not the -- most serious failings that I can imagine for a dive boat. And...See item 1.
3. There are a boatload of divers -- IMHO, most casual divers, who are what most of us are -- who would have a very, very difficult time swimming a mile on the surface in the ocean. Being able to see the shore is a lot different than being able to get there. Accordingly, leaving a diver behind is inherently dangerous and life-threatening, no matter where it occurs. And... see item 1.
4. Generally, the only people who are hot to file a lawsuit are people who haven't been in one. And it doesn't make much difference whether you're plaintiff or defendant. The best case still breeds a mess that even the most ardent plaintiff often wishes he/she had never started. It's even worse if one is in a lawsuit in a state (or even a city) where one doesn't live. In short, a lawsuit is a action of last resort, and any decent lawyer will say exactly that.
5. Even if someone won a lawsuit in these circumstances, it's likely to be the operation's insurance carrier that pays the claim.
MoonWrasse
Contributor
Valwood1:
Perhaps contacting the insurance carrier in advance would be a fun thing to do
Insurance carriers IMO don't like surprises. Chances are boat operator hasn't informed them of this incident, nor are they aware of other incidents.
If perchance this same bad boat operator were to have additional incidents or an unfortunate fatality(just a matter of time IMO), having other prior incidents documented in the public record might cast a poor light on this operator, diminishing their defense of "accidents happen".
On #4, you are correct.
fairybasslet
Contributor
Padipro:
How crowded to you consider Key Largo area dive sites? I'm thinking of the people who were left behind on Molassas Reef overnight. Did the operator (who I will not name because that happened a long time ago, they have since changed hands, and even before the op was sold, they changed their system to DAN tags and roll calls) think it was no big deal because it happened in a heavily trafficed area? Sorry. there is no excuse for leaving someone behind, even if it's in a bathtub.
OP
djanni
Contributor
Why would somesome characterize the incident as an Inconvenience? Quote" "As it turned out they were inconvenienced."
Had it been you and your wife or two of your kids left out there I bet you wouldn't have chosen the word inconvenienced. Had you seen the look on my wife's face as the Ibis headed off you might have chosen a different word.
My wife was injured. She smashed her finger real good climbing onto the back of the small privite boat. The blood was pouring out from her glove. She thought it was broken. It required a trip to the emergency room that night, stitches, a tetanus shot and she wore a splint for a week. It's still healing. I was at the emergency room when I spoke to the Coast Guard the first time. They know all about it.
Yet, as I said in my original post "thank God there was a small privite boat anchored 80 - 100 yards away."
No Lawsuits, neither one of us is wired that way. I have two good friends who are attorneys and 1 one of them was just dieing for me to, at least, let him write a letter to scare the "@#^%^*" of the them. When I got off the phone that Sunday night with the owner of the Ibis I was tempted just for revenge. Three divers that trip gave us business cards saying if I needed witness to call.
I posted this thread because I would really like Neil to change his ways and start being more caucious. I hope word circulates and more dive operators take notice.
We're going to Pensacola the last weekend in July. My wife called a dive operator there. She asked "how do you ensure all the divers are aboard following a dive?" Answer, humm, not sure you'll have to ask the Captain. She said "Wrong answer!" If you don't know the answer to that question your safety proceedures are suspect and we don't dive with operators who don't do roll calls. She called another - a 6 pack- the skipper answered and to her question responded I know everyone on my trips and I make sure all the divers are onboard but why do you ask, and would you prefer a roll-call? Yes we said and he said okay a roll call it is.
I do want to personally thank "mempilot," "sharpenu," and Padipro for their input and support. Thank you.
Had it been you and your wife or two of your kids left out there I bet you wouldn't have chosen the word inconvenienced. Had you seen the look on my wife's face as the Ibis headed off you might have chosen a different word.
My wife was injured. She smashed her finger real good climbing onto the back of the small privite boat. The blood was pouring out from her glove. She thought it was broken. It required a trip to the emergency room that night, stitches, a tetanus shot and she wore a splint for a week. It's still healing. I was at the emergency room when I spoke to the Coast Guard the first time. They know all about it.
Yet, as I said in my original post "thank God there was a small privite boat anchored 80 - 100 yards away."
No Lawsuits, neither one of us is wired that way. I have two good friends who are attorneys and 1 one of them was just dieing for me to, at least, let him write a letter to scare the "@#^%^*" of the them. When I got off the phone that Sunday night with the owner of the Ibis I was tempted just for revenge. Three divers that trip gave us business cards saying if I needed witness to call.
I posted this thread because I would really like Neil to change his ways and start being more caucious. I hope word circulates and more dive operators take notice.
We're going to Pensacola the last weekend in July. My wife called a dive operator there. She asked "how do you ensure all the divers are aboard following a dive?" Answer, humm, not sure you'll have to ask the Captain. She said "Wrong answer!" If you don't know the answer to that question your safety proceedures are suspect and we don't dive with operators who don't do roll calls. She called another - a 6 pack- the skipper answered and to her question responded I know everyone on my trips and I make sure all the divers are onboard but why do you ask, and would you prefer a roll-call? Yes we said and he said okay a roll call it is.
I do want to personally thank "mempilot," "sharpenu," and Padipro for their input and support. Thank you.
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