Abandoned at Sea - Sun June 26, 2005 - The Ibis, Dania Beach, Hollywood Fl.

[ReneeC]

I am just curious...since I am contemplating learning how to dive, I have but one question here:
If the diving instructiors have no say as to who mans the boats, the equipment, O2, etc and how safety precautions will be implemented from the skipper, DM or whomever up on the surface, then who regulates, controlls or otherwise governs the safety standards of these dive shops or boat ops? Diving is serious.....this is people's lives we are talking about.

Jacqueline - welcome to the board and hopefully welcome to the wonderful world of diving.

The reality of the world is the same in diving as in anything else. The only person ultimately responsible for your safety is you. And while it may seem that posts like this are scary - I would hope that they are educational. This post and others like it should serve to remind us to ask appropriate questions, demand proper procedures and not make assumptions.

While Instructors don't have say as to who is at the helm, etc they generally do chose operators they have experience with. They make sure the Captain or DM is aware that they have a class on board and what activities they are participating in.

 

[Jacqueline]

I like the DAN ID tag system. It's simple, and cheap to do. I can't imagine that DAN would charge much for it, but if they do, then they can make one of their own.

No matter the pricetag - you cannot put a price on a human life, period! What about the ultimate price - paying to go on a diving vacation, or on a diving instruction class excursion only to end up stranded in the ocean and end up "shark bait" as the character Daniel said in the movie Open Water. The untimely, and terrifying demise of the Lonergans (whom Open Water was based on) was the ultimate price that NO ONE should ever have to pay! Sorry for sounding opinionated

 

[Jacqueline]

I like the DAN ID tag system. It's simple, and cheap to do. I can't imagine that DAN would charge much for it, but if they do, then they can make one of their own.

No matter the pricetag - you cannot put a price on a human life, period! What about the ultimate price - paying to go on a diving vacation, or on a diving instruction class excursion only to end up stranded in the ocean and end up "shark bait" as the character Daniel said in the movie Open Water. The untimely, and terrifying demise of the Lonergans (whom Open Water was based on) was the ultimate price that NO ONE should ever have to pay! I will not do a dive with an instructor I am uncomfortable with - or a boat op that only does head counts, and has no policy of ensuring every diver makes it back on board. What happened to the Lonergans was inexcusable and certainly could have been prevented! What really sickened me was that none of the other divers even noticed, or bothered to care, that there were two divers missing! I have always wanted to learn scuba diving - and eventually go open water diving, and it means alot to me to learn how to be a good diving buddy to others so we can all enjoy - SAFELY. A good diving buddy will not neglect to notify the DM or the boat op if their partner(s) are still down, failed to surface, etc.
Sorry for sounding opinionated

 

[Jacqueline]

Jacqueline - welcome to the board and hopefully welcome to the wonderful world of diving.

The reality of the world is the same in diving as in anything else. The only person ultimately responsible for your safety is you. And while it may seem that posts like this are scary - I would hope that they are educational. This post and others like it should serve to remind us to ask appropriate questions, demand proper procedures and not make assumptions.

While Instructors don't have say as to who is at the helm, etc they generally do chose operators they have experience with. They make sure the Captain or DM is aware that they have a class on board and what activities they are participating in.

Yes, these posts are scary - but also very educational. It will help me learn how to raise the appropriate questions even if others forget to do so.

 

[Charlie99]

If I stopped diving with every boat that doesn't do a proper roll call, doesn't have adequate staff, doesn't keep proper O2 and first aid - there would be few boats to dive with.

You have a much lower opinion and expectations of dive operators than do I.

I am not advocating mediocrity. More like commenting on experience. I would be happy to see a posting that lists local dive operators that "quarantee" they do a roll call, the O2 bottle is full and the delivery mechanisms are working and clean, and who have properly trained and certified staff based on the diver ratios. And all that of course without charging outrageous rates.

You sound as if those items are unusual extras rather than being basic, essential things you expect of all boats.

Perhaps you aren't advocating mediocrity, but it sure sounds like you are willing to accept it.


Nothing you listed costs much. Doing a roll call takes a minute or two. The O2 bottle and delivery system costs are insignificant compared to the rest of the boat and equipment costs. One can interpret "properly trained and certified staff based on diver ratios" in many ways. My basic requirements are that the mate/DM know what he's doing and have some experience. This does add some cost by adding an extra person while the mate-in-training gets some experience. Not in the above list, but very important is " a good attitude towards safety". This attitude will be reflected in a lot of different areas ...... maintenance of the boat; good boat briefings; good cross-training of the crew so they can fill in for each other; good, clear communication between the mate and Capt regarding the presence of divers in the water when picking them up and getting back underway after pickups, .....

I'll start off the list ......

Splashdown. Boynton Beach.

I'm sure others can add many more names.

 

[Miami_Diver]

True , we here in south florida have an abundant of boats but from the one and only experience that I had with them ,it was exellent.they have a new spacy Newton dive boat witch I love. and like I said before I was very impressed with the crew.what they did was wrong , obviously a mistake . doubt they would to this on purpose , no one wants bad press.but they did learn their lesson so Ill visit them again.

 

[Xanthro]

No matter the pricetag - you cannot put a price on a human life, period! What about the ultimate price - paying to go on a diving vacation, or on a diving instruction class excursion only to end up stranded in the ocean and end up "shark bait" as the character Daniel said in the movie Open Water. The untimely, and terrifying demise of the Lonergans (whom Open Water was based on) was the ultimate price that NO ONE should ever have to pay! Sorry for sounding opinionated

Of course we put a price on human life. If we didn't NOTHING would function.

All kinds of vital human activity is measured in terms of exactly how many persons per million will die from this activity.

A car could be made that would guarentee that you would survive any normal type of accident. Such cars are not made, because they would cost millions of dollars.

When you have an X-ray, you increase you chance of cancer, same as when you eat a banana, or go outside do to natural radiation.

This whole concept of human life has no associated price or that saving just one life is worth any cost is HARMFUL.

Diving could be made perfectly safe. DO NOT DIVE. If you have diving, people will die. That is a fact.

Any type of activity has risk involved and that risk is quite often analysed and we debate what is considered safe or not safe.

Vaccines for example. Smallpox died out in the United States in 1949, the last case was in Texas. Yet, we vaccinated people against smallpox until 1968, this KILLED people who would have never died from the vacination otherwise. This was done because in the long term, more people would have been saved, had smallpox been accidently reintroduced to the United States.

What you advocate means there is zero, none, nada, zilch in terms of activity. You can only reduce risk, not eliminate and the close you get to eliminating it the more expensive it becomes.

 

[ReneeC]

I'll start off the list ......

Splashdown. Boynton Beach.

I'm sure others can add many more names.

Charlie - I don't have low expectations. If anything I probably have higher than most but I still carry my own O2 and first aid kit and extra surface signaling devices.

And I am not trying to start any arguments and I hope this discussion does not become personal ... Those who know me know I am Miss Mellow - but I am a strong advocate of diver safety through personal responsibility.

So having said that thanks for starting the list.

But can you tell me where do they keep their O2 bottle and who is trained to administer it. When was the last time you asked them to prove it was full or to see anyone's current training card?

Please continue the list and maybe we could start a new thread that does just that - lists boats that do roll calls or use diver tag systems, have full and fresh O2 with properly maintained delivery systems and staff trained to use it, and have adequate staff to diver ratios on board. The next time we get on board we take responsiblility for verifying this information and relaying it back to the board. What do you think?

 

[Charlie99]

But can you tell me where do they keep their O2 bottle and who is trained to administer it. When was the last time you asked them to prove it was full or to see anyone's current training card?

Unfortunately, I got to see it in action about a year ago after a diver got nervous after doing an uncontrolled ascent. Yes, it worked. Yes, they had people onboard that knew how to work it. It's been almost 2 weeks since I've been out with them, but IIRC from the boat briefing they would give each day, it's portside in forward lower cabin area.

 

[djanni]

As Posted by you on 7-03-05: At the risk of starting an extra fury here... The Libra in me wants to temper this thread. By no means am I minimizing the seriousness of Neil's actions, particularly his failure to learn from the incident, but this forum has the ability to do serious damage to an operator's reputation.

Renee, You made the statemet above early in this thread. You said go easy on Neil even though he failed to learn from the experience. At the time you said that I thought the sentiment you were expressing was a bit strange.

Then Yesterday you said this:

I like these guys and from all I hear from my fellow instructors who use them regularly is that the lesson has been learned.

In your first post you want to cut them slack while at the same time acknowledging they failed to learn a lesson. Now you're still wanting to cut them slack based on the testimony of others. You obviously have not dived with them to know for yourself.

The point; As far as I'm concerned you are far more concerned with your own personel conviences than with the safety of your fellow divers or your fellow instructors.

If you are a friend of Neil's ask him to call me on the phone. He has my phone number. If he gives me his word, once again, that he is doing roll calls regularly, every dive, I'll post that here in this thread. Then, if he's inconsistant someone will come here and post that too.

You are right that the whole point of this post was to effect a change in Niel's behavior and maybe it's working. Thing is, the point of your posts are not clear at all.

Don