a spin off to the dying a hero thread...

[rjack321]

It was NOT random, it was during drills and started with a single issue, solved, two issues, solved, three issues solved. I was not just swimming around and bam! OOA! It was time to do this, we did not know what the failure were going to be, or the combination of one or two tasks was completely random, but we clearly knew we were there to do this. Teach me? I am still deciding. In the heat of the moment my brain said OOA primary reg, isolator open, signal OOA to buddy, he donated (could kind of make him out in the blurr right infront of me). I was debriefed that I acted properly, got my priorities right, air, mask, recclip. I don't like being OOA. If I went to my necklace I would have had air, but then again my brain said primary ooa, isolator open, signal OOA. Doing it without my mask flooded would have been too easy.

Why did you talk about "dying" in your original post? Maybe I misunderstood.

Going to your backup or signalling OOA are both reasonable responses IMO. If your buddy had not donated and you sat there fluxemd until an instructor reg was pushed into your mouth would have been a "mistake"

 

[peterbj7]

This thread seems to demonstrate that those people who have been put through the sort of extreme stress that I and some others have been advocating felt it to have been an (in)valuable part of their training. Most of those who haven't experienced it are opposed to it. I know which group of people I would go to if I wanted technical dive training.

 

[ucfdiver]

That does not answer the questions I asked which was

"Have you had an instructor switch off your gas before? Did you panic?"

It was in response to your claim:

"A sudden OOA situation is unrealistic and serves only to create panic. I would start instructor shopping if I were you. "

I am wondering where you get these ideas.

Because it goes against everything the diver saw during the dive. I *knew* my stage was near empty. If I somehow went from 2400psi in back gas to sucking on a dry reg I wouldn't call that realistic. Why not task load the diver with OTHER problems when a stage is near empty rather than making up a scenario?

No, I did not have an instructor violate standards and manipulate my valves. I did have instructors airgun them.

 

[Sas]

Because it goes against everything the diver saw during the dive. I *knew* my stage was near empty. If I somehow went from 2400psi in back gas to sucking on a dry reg I wouldn't call that realistic. Why not task load the diver with OTHER problems when a stage is near empty rather than making up a scenario?

That doesn't answer the questions I raised which were:

"Have you had an instructor switch off your gas before? Did you panic?"

You are going off on a tangent involving switches to stages and so on, which is not what I am getting at (stress testing of students to remind you).

I am guessing the answer is 'no' and if so, how do you know it is a bad thing to include during training? Have you ever been subjected to a lot of stress during training? If so, could you describe what happened? I am only bringing this up as you told the OP to get a new instructor, because of her gas was turned off. I am wondering if you have any actual reason to be saying this from your own knowledge and experiences.

Unexpected OOAs occur. Would you not rather be trained to deal with them than having to deal with it for the first time for real if it ever happens?

edit: ok you answered it after I posted this, so how do you know it is a bad thing if you have never had it done to you? What else have instructors done to stress you out?

 

[rjack321]

Then what does this mean: "I've had buddies swim off while I was OOA. And fail to donate too."

I am confused about what you are talking about here. Perhaps you could lay out the scenario/s where you have had to undergo stress as part of your training.

I descended for real with a buddy who had his valve barely cracked. He signalled OOA on the bottom (30ft?) when he realized something was "wrong" with his reg.

I have signalled OOA in training and gotten nothing donated. Buddy only had one working reg and didn't think to buddy breathe.

I have been called OOA in a cave (by instructor), taken the reg out and signalled furiously and had my buddy swim off. I had to chase him down.

I have never had my gas turned off to try to simulate some sort of sudden warning-less OOA.

What is the problem with just having stress in insolation?

Springing random OOAs shows minimal capacity to challenge students. Good instructors can get to OOA divers more creatively, realistically, and actually teach rather than just be a random stressor. Sh*t doesn't happen randomly UW, most failures are a cascade of problems which progressively overwhelms the student.

 

[tkdgodess]

OOA, Can't see, things don't happen fast enough. Overall, in general, rec or tec, I don't want to expire doing things that are optional. Yes I think if I had just been panicking and had the reg removed from my mouth and a doner shove in, it would have been a failure. I learned that OOA had an immediate response to wanting air. Immediate. It's not like free diving, breath holding. It unexpected and you want it. It would be a horrible way to die. I had a reg coming to me, it just seemed to take forever, and if it were real it would be horrible to die that way. (meaning a real accidental OOA)That's what went thru my head right after. And to repeat it was not random. I knew at some point in that section of the training I would be ooa in some kind of combo.

 

[peterbj7]

most failures are a cascade of problems which progressively overwhelms the student

I agree, but "most" is not "all". And in some cases the initial failure is sufficient to kill you if you don't deal with it properly immediately.

 

[DevonDiver]

Because it goes against everything the diver saw during the dive. I *knew* my stage was near empty. If I somehow went from 2400psi in back gas to sucking on a dry reg I wouldn't call that realistic.

Unless the gauge was malfunctioning...

Tech training doesn't just teach reactions to common problems... it teaches the diver to survive any problem.

Unexpected loss of gas should be surviveable. Note the bolded word.

Why not task load the diver with OTHER problems when a stage is near empty rather than making up a scenario?

You seem fixated on a fixed 'issue-resolution' model of training. If XXX happens, then apply solution YYY.

That would leave gaping holes in the required mindset and capacity for technical diving.

No, I did not have an instructor violate standards and manipulate my valves. I did have instructors airgun them.

So, you were only taught to resolve problems that you could actually see..or could be easily replicated with an airgun?

Frankly, if an instructor manipulating a student's valves is cause for panic or concern, then tech diving isn't a pursuit that they should be engaged with.

The OP's post proves the point. How was it proved? Because she learnt something from it...

 

[peterbj7]

What are these "standards" that "ucfdiver" and others are talking about being violated?

 

[Sas]

I descended for real with a buddy who had his valve barely cracked. He signalled OOA on the bottom (30ft?) when he realized something was "wrong" with his reg.

I have signalled OOA in training and gotten nothing donated. Buddy only had one working reg and didn't think to buddy breathe.

I have been called OOA in a cave (by instructor), taken the reg out and signalled furiously and had my buddy swim off. I had to chase him down.

But never an unexpected OOA. How do you know it is a bad method of training then that will teach you nothing?

What have you been subjected to in training then, that was stressful or involved something unexpected?

Springing random OOAs shows minimal capacity to challenge students. Good instructors can get to OOA divers more creatively, realistically, and actually teach rather than just be a random stressor. Sh*t doesn't happen randomly UW, most failures are a cascade of problems which progressively overwhelms the student.

Completely disagree. It is much harder to deal with a completely unexpected OOA as you have nothing to work with and that is partly why it is useful for an instructor to do. Good instructors should use many ways of training including completely unexpected things. And often by the time someone goes OOA they have lost situational awareness to notice their gas running out in my experience. 

I learned a lot from stress testing.