A somewhat sad conversation last night

[MXGratefulDiver]

The DIR issue.
This guy was swimming almost in a walking position. He was wearing some kind of back inflate BC that allowed the tank to hang far to low behind his butt.... I think this may have been the central issue in his incorrect center of gravity, and his terrible posture in the water collum.
So if there was no DIR in this world, who would even notice that this guy had an equipment configuration that was nearly criminal? {humour, not literal} Where would this guy go or look for examples of bad and good configurations, and for ideas on how to be better in the water?

Dan ... first off, you're addressing this as a DIR issue. It's not ... and addressing it as such only creates the very misimpression of DIR that so many are describing here.

This is NOT a DIR issue at all ... it's an issue of improperly using the equipment the person is wearing.

A BCD that "allows" a tank too low describes pretty much any BCD that uses a single tank strap ... and, if improperly adjusted, can also occur with the dual-strap BCD.

ANY BCD can be adjusted for proper trim or balance. It doesn't have to be a BP/W. The latter offers several advantages to the diver who is going to be considering dives appropriate to its use ... even in a recreational setting. But suggesting that the BCD is responsible for a person's bad trim is essentially saying you think people should use equipment to solve a skills problem.

The problem doesn't lie with the gear choice ... it lies with how the gear is being used. And it very well (and more likely) lies with the fact that this person ... who has grown accustomed to moving while in a vertical orientation his whole life ... was never taught how to move any other way. Neither of those problems is endemic to the choice of gear. Nor would a different BCD choice necessarily improve that person's posture ... if that's how he's used to moving, he'll simply make whatever adjustments are required to keep moving that way.

The problem must be resolved by finding and addressing the root causes ... not blaming it on the gear ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[nimoh]

One who is unsafe in one environment (deeper, reduced vis) are might be relatively reasonable in another (shallow, clear, etc). In OW, ill dive with almost anyone. As the complexity of the dive increases, the number of folks who I'll do that dive with subsequently decreases.

I think 'don't dive with unsafe divers' is a pretty sound recommendation.

I agree, I was referring to the guy in the video in my post, and thinking about 40' dives or so. I probably would be more selective on complex dives as well.

Also, I meant to say I don't completely agree with "don't dive with unsafe divers" in every situation, implying that there are exceptions to this rule in my mind, but agree that it is a sound recommendation for the most part.

 

[fjpatrum]

Diving's not a contest ... neither is posting on the Internet. It's something we do for fun.

I don't care who thinks they're better than me. Who knows ... they might be right.

Why should it matter? Some of the most fun people I dive with aren't nearly as skilled as people I know who I wouldn't want to dive with.

Who's better? Depends on whether you're judging by skill set or by who you can have the most fun spending a few hours with ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

There's a quote in the movie 'Step Into Liquid' that I think is perfectly applicable here... "Who's the best surfer (diver) in the world? The one having the most fun."

 

[lamont]

Now, I really don't give a rat's ass about whether it is DIR or not, that neither defines nor circumscribes my diving world. I only bring up the example to demonstrate how what is touted to be a holistic system can, with respect to a trivial issue, quickly degenerate into a reductionist one. I really don't care how John, or Lamont dive, per se, but I do believe, that as a thinking diver, I have an obligation to point out (if just for the benefit of new divers) that BS is being distributed and that confusion is rampant. If there is this much confusion and angst concerning a nose block, does that not make one wonder about more sweeping and important dictates?

Thal, up your reading comprehension.

I just posted out dives with a FFM that have to be done with an FFM that can't be considered DIR.

I don't get online and whine about how DIR must be universal across all kinds of diving and since I've found a particular edge condition that requires a FFM that DIR must change itself to accomodate this case. Its just outside of the scope.

And you've misunderstood holistic. It is holistic in that it encompasses the gear, the procedures, the diver's own preparation (fitness, experience, etc), and the whole team doing the particular dive. It does not claim to be perfectly *universal* and apply to every recreational dive and diver possible, which is a different concept entirely, and a pretty stupid idea to try to take on.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In the beginning, we were just minding our own business, I was doing macro video of nudibranchs, mantis shrimp, anemonees, and was looking for the oculina coral and the life that was around it.Then, this guy litterally ran over Sandra.
[video=youtube_share;UVpD08Ko2DY]http://youtu.be/UVpD08Ko2DY?hd=1[/video]

... that's clearly not an equipment problem, Dan ... that guy would look just as bad in a BP/W. Clearly he either was never taught anything about how to move himself through the water, or he decided to ignore everything he was taught. This fellow looks like he'd be more comfortable on a bicycle ... or a hiking trail ... with his skills it wouldn't matter what gear he was wearing, he's lacking skills he should have learned before he was ever granted a c-card ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

"Unsafe divers" is a nebulous term. I wouldn't do a deep dive with someone who was diving a tank that wouldn't allow them to keep safe gas reserves for the planned dive. I wouldn't go diving with someone who had habits like the photographer we met in Indonesia, who would stay down until his tank was EMPTY and then come up on his DM's gas (the resort assigned him a personal DM for this reason). Unsafe diving is often a product of attitude, rather than skill; new divers with really poor skills are often attentive and careful, and less "unsafe" than cocky people with better technique.

I would, and have gone diving with people like Dan describes. How do people improve, if no one with more experience will help them? Not only that, but the Wednesday dives that were the genesis of this thread in the first place . . . are FOR this purpose!

And no, you don't have to change to a GUE gear configuration to solve weight and balance problems. But if you do, the problems are solved in the process, which is a nice side effect of the gear, and is the reason why that type of setup is very popular here in the PNW, even among people who haven't even heard of GUE. A lot of other problems go away at the same time, which is one of the reasons we do tend to be evangelistic about our gear! It is not the only way to dive comfortably or well, but it's an awfully easy one. Or, as the shop owner Bob was talking about once told me, "DIR is just such a SIMPLE way to dive."

 

[nimoh]

"Unsafe divers" is a nebulous term. I wouldn't do a deep dive with someone who was diving a tank that wouldn't allow them to keep safe gas reserves for the planned dive. I wouldn't go diving with someone who had habits like the photographer we met in Indonesia, who would stay down until his tank was EMPTY and then come up on his DM's gas (the resort assigned him a personal DM for this reason). Unsafe diving is often a product of attitude, rather than skill; new divers with really poor skills are often attentive and careful, and less "unsafe" than cocky people with better technique.

I would, and have gone diving with people like Dan describes. How do people improve, if no one with more experience will help them? Not only that, but the Wednesday dives that were the genesis of this thread in the first place . . . are FOR this purpose!

And no, you don't have to change to a GUE gear configuration to solve weight and balance problems. But if you do, the problems are solved in the process, which is a nice side effect of the gear, and is the reason why that type of setup is very popular here in the PNW, even among people who haven't even heard of GUE. A lot of other problems go away at the same time, which is one of the reasons we do tend to be evangelistic about our gear! It is not the only way to dive comfortably or well, but it's an awfully easy one. Or, as the shop owner Bob was talking about once told me, "DIR is just such a SIMPLE way to dive."

I have never heard of "don't dive with unsafe divers" explained this way before, perhaps I agree with it more than I thought

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I would, and have gone diving with people like Dan describes. How do people improve, if no one with more experience will help them? Not only that, but the Wednesday dives that were the genesis of this thread in the first place . . . are FOR this purpose!

... which is why I support them. One of the very best ways to get someone to improve isn't to preach at them or tell them what they're doing wrong ... it's simply to set a good example and show them what's possible. Most folks will decide all on their own that they want some of that ... then evangelism becomes unnecessary, you just have to point them in a direction where they can find it.

And no, you don't have to change to a GUE gear configuration to solve weight and balance problems. But if you do, the problems are solved in the process, which is a nice side effect of the gear, and is the reason why that type of setup is very popular here in the PNW, even among people who haven't even heard of GUE. A lot of other problems go away at the same time, which is one of the reasons we do tend to be evangelistic about our gear! It is not the only way to dive comfortably or well, but it's an awfully easy one.

It depends. If you are shown how to set the gear up properly, it solves a lot of problems. If you configure it improperly, it creates a whole new set of problems ... which I'm certain you've seen. The DIR configuration is an elegant approach to equipment configuration ... but it would be a mistake to assume that changing equipment is going to make someone a better diver. The tools don't define the craft ... but there's a reason why craftsmen in all disciplines choose appropriate and quality tools to achieve a certain level of performance.

Or, as the shop owner Bob was talking about once told me, "DIR is just such a SIMPLE way to dive."

Just to be clear ... the shop manager I was referring to earlier wasn't the owner ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added April 16th, 2012 at 09:25 AM ----------

I have never heard of "don't dive with unsafe divers" explained this way before, perhaps I agree with it more than I thought

... knowledge is such an enlightening thing ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[gypsyjim]

[video=youtube_share;UVpD08Ko2DY]http://youtu.be/UVpD08Ko2DY?hd=1[/video]

Are you even certain this fellow ever certified at all? Looks more like he stumbled across a yard sale deal on gear, and figured he'd take it for a stroll. Sort of a: "I mean, how hard could this diving thing be anyway?"

Wow. Talk about destroying the reef.

 

[lamont]

I have never heard of "don't dive with unsafe divers" explained this way before, perhaps I agree with it more than I thought

It used to be "don't dive with strokes" and that meme was changed to "unsafe divers" to make the point that its more about mindset and in direct opposition to the other way the meme was evolving which was "don't dive with non-DIR divers (since they're all strokes)".

And that guy, irregardless of how bad he looks, isn't actually a stroke (or isn't necessarily a stroke). He just doesn't know any better. Its the egocentric ones who think they're a badass tech/cave diver and know everything and have little understanding of their own limitations and are hell bent on pushing every limit there is who are the dangerous ones. Those are the ones you want to step back and stay out of their way until they have a CO2 hit or some kind of incident and wind up selling all their dive gear to focus more on their family.

There are actually some GUE divers I know who fall under that category that I won't dive with. Agency and gear config aren't foolproof by any means.