A somewhat sad conversation last night

[The Chairman]

They're everywhere, yanno ... and GUE is no more responsible for the actions of the former than PADI is for the actions of the latter.

You only say that because it's true!

 

[danvolker]

My turn to make things better or worse

Yesterday Sandra and I dove the BHB. Granted it was a weekend, and you know there will be students standing on the bottom in some delicate areas, meaning you try to grin and bare some of the skill based atrocities occurring in front of you.....We had an encounter with the WORST DIVER I had ever seen...and this is saying alot! This guy was already certified, and following a buddy.....We first saw him as he careened by Sandra, kicking a strobe on her camera as he swam by....we were about 8 feet from the wall to the nav channel, and this guy did NOT need to be near us, lot less run over Sandra and her camera. So I got annoyed, and shoved his tank as he rototilled past----he looked at me like...."why" ?....Then went on his way.
The DIR issue.
This guy was swimming almost in a walking position. He was wearing some kind of back inflate BC that allowed the tank to hang far to low behind his butt.... I think this may have been the central issue in his incorrect center of gravity, and his terrible posture in the water collum.
So if there was no DIR in this world, who would even notice that this guy had an equipment configuration that was nearly criminal? {humour, not literal} Where would this guy go or look for examples of bad and good configurations, and for ideas on how to be better in the water?

Yes, pre-DIR there were avenues for this, but not well expressed, or available to everyone. Today, this guy can look at some DIR videos and photos, hear what DIR divers have to say about his configuration, he can then try some of their ideas, and see if he enjoys diving more with the better configuration.

So, as this guy WAS the worst diver I had ever seen in my life, I followed him for about 5 minutes, and shot some video of him. I had a macro lens on, rather than my usual 16 to 35mm, which is regretable, but you can still see the horor unfolding. Litterally, he was in a walking position, doing flutter kick, with fins on the bottom, for hundreds of yards....if there had been delicate corals in his path, instead of just nudibranchs and other tiny marine life, I think someone would need to have pulled him to the surface....Considering Anne Dupont has found oculina corals in the BHB area, it is possible this guy did actually hurt some very special coral.

After the dive ended, I saw this guy and his buddy near my car--they were parked 10 feet away. Maybe I am part of the DIR preception problem, but I could not help myself....I had to say something. I walked over and said hi, and that I had shot some video of him that he might want to see....I added that I was sure that he wanted to be a good diver, and that some day he may very well be, but that at the moment, his gear configuration was destroying any chance he had for diving with any skill....I asked him if he knew any instructors that might be able to help him figure out how to get the weight up higher, and to flatten him out while swimming....he actually knew an instructor attached to a good shop with some GUE trained instructors, so I told him this should be a priority for him, that these guys could make his diving enjoyment much better, and that this could be the best diving decision he could make.

Should I have said anything? Was I being a DIR Nazi? I did remain extremely poilite throughout, I blamed his gear, not him....and at the end, we shook hands, and I think both of these guys will talk to the instructors at JDC.

Pre-DIR, some might have defended this as personal preference. Like this is how he wanted to dive. I think there are "boundaries" now, and DIR can be a helpful boundary area, for a guy like this....
He will never be DIR, barring a major change in his mindset ( regardless of gear, mindset allowed him to be the worst diver I had ever seen)....This mindset he "could get" from DIR, is a change DIR thinking is really responsible for...a kind of change that would have been unlikely without DIR....

An Instructor like Thal could make all the right fixes to this guy without DIR, but my bet is that he would "borrow" from some of the psychology of DIR mindset, in his attempt to describe the way this guy needed to start thinking..
I will pull the video off the camera this morning, and get a clip of it on youtube.....you guys can then tell me how you would have handled this...

When we first began bringing DIR to recreational divers, it was to help them fix major problems that we saw no FIX for in the way things were. Gear was bad, and there was no definable "right way" or "wrong way" to use it prior to 1995....

 

[Simon-]

This guy was swimming almost in a walking position. He was wearing some kind of back inflate BC that allowed the tank to hang far to low behind his butt.... I think this may have been the central issue in his incorrect center of gravity, and his terrible posture in the water collum.
So if there was no DIR in this world, who would even notice that this guy had an equipment configuration that was nearly criminal? {humour, not literal} Where would this guy go or look for examples of bad and good configurations, and for ideas on how to be better in the water?

Yes, pre-DIR there were avenues for this, but not well expressed, or available to everyone. Today, this guy can look at some DIR videos and photos, hear what DIR divers have to say about his configuration, he can then try some of their ideas, and see if he enjoys diving more with the better configuration.

This may be stoking the fire but, no agency in the world would advocate that sort of trim in diving. None. So the "if there was no DIR ......." falls rather flat. Unless of course you are saying that every other agency actively ecourages poor control and trim.

Better configuration? According to who?

This is where the "elitist" tags come from. No-one else could possibly have decent trim and buoyancy. Heaven forbid I dive with someone who has the kit set differently to mine.

I plan a dive, I carry out the dive to that plan, I get out of the water and go home. I have done it right.

 

[danvolker]

This may be stoking the fire but, no agency in the world would advocate that sort of trim in diving. None. So the "if there was no DIR ......." falls rather flat. Unless of course you are saying that every other agency actively ecourages poor control and trim.

Better configuration? According to who?

This is where the "elitist" tags come from. No-one else could possibly have decent trim and buoyancy. Heaven forbid I dive with someone who has the kit set differently to mine.

Thanks, this is the response thought I wanted to address.

Back up to 1995, before DIR hit rec.scuba.....

Unless you were WKPP, you had never heard of it, and thoughts about the right or the best or the optimal gear configuration, were poorly defined. There were very strong divers, with good gear configurations, but what was very good in their set ups, was not expressed in any useful way for the masses without the good gear configurations.

Even today, many agencies do not want to touch "optimal gear configuration". However, there are shops selling bad gear combinations, often due to the sale taking place by a kid with little diving knowledge, and then slapped on to the backs of the diver, with little thought. An instructor might wince at the look of some set ups, but if not life threatening, many would not decide it is in their purvey to wade in to this mess.

DIR thought is different. When we see gear that does not work well, or is configured in a way that will restrict function, or cause an unsafe situation, DIR has a direction for this, and a better way.

There were probably 10 to 15 dive instructors that saw this guy during the dive....I would question if any thought he was safe in the water. None said anything to him.... Again, maybe I am part of the problem this thread details ( because I pushed a DIR agenda to a diver that I thought needed help) ...but I felt there was a better way this guy should know about, and I felt it would be wrong not to share it.

 

[Simon-]

I am not looking for an arguement (surprising for SB I know), but some of the terminology is what I find hard to accept.

Optimal Gear Configuration - this is a selective view. Please tell me how the placement of my SPG or the positioning of a back-up torch is so detrimental to my configuration. I put them where I feel they are best suited for me. Not for anyone else, but for me. It makes my configuration optimal to me.

To use an analogy about dive shops selling poor gear combinations is weak. In every facet of life bad combinations are sold. Look at cars and accessories, look at fashion, interior design etc. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong.

I would have hoped that at least one or more of the other instructors would have said something, not agency based, but merely pointing out some tips. I applaud the fact you did speak to him, but does it have to be based on an agency's training?

I would blame him, as opposed to the gear (based on your description). His tank sounds like it was set too low. That can be done with any BCD. To imply, as your post did. that a BP/W (the DIR way) would be the answer to his prayers is wrong. He could still set it low. I am sure when he was trained he wasn't shown to set it that low.

How many people still drive the way the were taught. We all develop habits (some good, some bad). This sounds like a bad one. A new regime of training wouldn't be required, just a little "mate, you might want to try setting your tank a bit higher, it'll get you flatter in the water"

 

[Doc Harry]

Can we please concentrate on the question at hand, and have a little less vitriol and personal comments when people try to post examples of how they've had negative experiences with the DIR community? Way too much of that, especially in the recent parts of this thread.

TSandM's original post was her attempt to show that people's pre-conceived negative connotations of DIR can be reversed with personal experience with DIR divers.

My posts, and other people's "vitriolic" posts, demonstrate quite the opposite. Pre-conceived negative connotations of DIR were reinforced with personal experience with DIR divers.

I am still willing to give GUE another chance - as I said, as soon as the offer me reimbursement for my previous wasted trips to Florida for GUE-F.

 

[gypsyjim]

Unless a student is taught the difference or until a diver actually willingly begins to see a difference between body positions, and equipment configurations they simply may have no idea there is any reason to explore variations and techniques beyond what they first were exposed to in their OW class.

Like many here, my first real exposure to even the term DIR was on this board, and there was a lot of negativity on both sides of the discussion. Even the term BP/W seemed to be a flash point. At first my reaction was to watch and read, and then gradually to do a bit of , just to get folks talking, so I could read and learn more.

It was threw our local SB forum, DNY that I first began to see some Welcoming discussion, with folks posting about their practicing skill sets, their trial and errors, and offering fellow DNY divers to come play with them at the quarry. Once I got the chance to be in the water with a couple of these folks and see them in action I realized there was a significant difference in their diving from anyone else I had ever seen, and a higher ideal, U/W skill wise to shoot for, for myself.

This open discussion in a general scuba forum, and the open offer to anyone involved in the group's various threads to come play with skills in the quarry, without really resorting to the words DIR, really opened the door to more than a few of us just to come out and play. And so learn.


The videotaping of our dives when I did first take a GUE seminar was a real eye opener for me, but I had to be ready to learn before I got there. It is a shame that video taping and self critiquing is not a regular part all OW type training, as starting students right out with such a visual reference for comparison would I believe go a long way toward creating more self aware divers, ever willing to see a need to continually keep improving. You have to see a difference, before you see a need to change.

 

[Crush]

You're correct that GUE is very much binary, either you're doing it the GUE way, or you're not. I was refering more to the overall diving world, in that the GUE way isn't the only way to safely execute a dive.

My mistake - sorry.

Learning how to dive with the required equipment is kind of implied upon requesting GUE training, is it not?

...

If you decide that extra drings are how you like to roll, go nuts. No one is forcing anything on you. The courses simply teach how we operate, that's all. If one isn't interested in learning that, why sign up for it?

All those extra D-rings that I had pre-Fundies - I never did re-string them into my webbing and so far I have not needed them. As far as I am concerned, GUE is akin to a private club that requires a jacket and tie - if I seek admission to the club knowing the dress code I shouldn't bitch about said dress code, should I?

This view quickly fades as you move past Fundies. And I'm not sure that the crotch strap d-rings are the best example, since they have all sorts of uses even for rec dives.

gsk3, I have no doubt that you are correct. However, many newer divers (take Crewfish13, below, as an example) prefer to understand why, not just what. For example, why does this view quickly fade as you move past Fundies? What "view" are you referring to? That GUE is binary, that beginners love their D-rings, or that crotch straps are an entanglement hazard?

I'll pitch in as well. I understand that most DIR and tech divers on the board are simply trying to be helpful, but can definitely come off as know-it-alls or jerks. I've seen plenty of threads started with "I'm looking for a BCD. I'm thinking about xxx and yyy. What are the pros and cons?" and quickly turn into "Get a BP/W. You'll thank me later", which usually isn't helpful, regardless of the poster's intentions. After all, most of us buying our first set of gear certified in jackets, and that's what we're comfortable in. And to newbs, being comfortable in our gear is extremely important so we can focus on our skills. Same can be said for other pieces of equipment.

Granted, DIR divers tend to have a great deal of experience and there's a lot use newbs can learn from them, but sometimes the conversation feels like trying to explain what we're looking for in a minivan, and the response is "Just save up for a Ferrari."

Maybe someday I'll join the ranks of DIR, but these days DIR sometimes feels like an elitist attitude (even when it's not), and in the meantime, I'm happy just being a

---------- Post added April 16th, 2012 at 06:40 AM ----------

When we first began bringing DIR to recreational divers, it was to help them fix major problems that we saw no FIX for in the way things were. Gear was bad, and there was no definable "right way" or "wrong way" to use it prior to 1995....

I am confused by this assertion. The National Association for Cave Diving (NACD) was around since 1968 and I believe that the National Speleological Society Cave Diving Section (NSS-CDS) is about the same age. Were the NACD and NSS-CDS not diving correctly prior to DIR's intervention in 1995?

 

[nimoh]

I have recently (in the past year) started switching my equipment to DIR and plan on taking fundies later this year. I have some instructors that are DIR divers, which is what got me down the DIR path. I am not nearly knowledgeable enough about DIR, or experienced as a diver to be telling other divers what they should be doing (so I don't).

I do wonder about something though. It seems to me that discussions such as these end up with people that are DIR vs people that are opposed to DIR. I would be curios to hear from someone that went down the DIR path, possibly even went through fundies or beyond, and then after that decided that DIR wasn't for them, and their reasons.

 

[danvolker]

My mistake - sorry.





---------- Post added April 16th, 2012 at 06:40 AM ----------



I am confused by this assertion. The National Association for Cave Diving (NACD) was around since 1968 and I believe that the National Speleological Society Cave Diving Section (NSS-CDS) is about the same age. Were the NACD and NSS-CDS not diving correctly prior to DIR's intervention in 1995?

In the mid nineties, cave divers were dying like flies. Personal preference was all the rage. George coined the name DIR to separate WKPP and it's style of diving--with perfect track record, from NACD and all the other cave diving groups at the time.

Today is a different world....Today no such disparity exists that would call for a name as potentially obnoxious as DIR. But in the nineties, people were given all sorts of bad advice, and wearing all sorts of configurations which led to many deaths.

We still have the name DIR, and it still indicates a boundary position where gear is a certain way, and diving is done a certain way, and the track record and accomplishments of those using it is very high....I did not put up a post just now, saying DIR is all there is....and today all I am saying is that the original purpose of DIR, to help those that need help, is still valid.

---------- Post added April 16th, 2012 at 09:55 AM ----------

For those that read my initial posts in this thread, here is the video I spoke of. Watch it, and then tell me what you would have done, and whether a DIR mindset might not help this guy...


In the beginning, we were just minding our own business, I was doing macro video of nudibranchs, mantis shrimp, anemonees, and was looking for the oculina coral and the life that was around it.Then, this guy litterally ran over Sandra.
[video=youtube_share;UVpD08Ko2DY]http://youtu.be/UVpD08Ko2DY?hd=1[/video]