A question for newly qualified divers...........

[tomcat]

Hey Warhammer (loved your manoeuvre, and unlike the others, i thought it was a perfectly normal biological process that does not warrant surprise or consternation :Þ),

Now that you mentioned it, I do vaguely remember putting part of the reg into my mouth and letting the excess air escape out of the corner.

Gotta try it again the next time I go out there. Thanks for the reminder.

tomcat

 

[Warhammer]

Man you're quick. Go back and read my last post again, I added something at the end.

Manuver...Yeah, if you want to experience a cut reg hose, just join Mario, Don, and myself on our first dive together. I promise bubbles will be a flying!!

 

[tomcat]

Hey Warhammer,

Can't seem to be able to locate the thread that you are talking about. Got a link?

tomcat

 

[Warhammer]

It's 4 above this one. guess i should have been more clear, I edited my previous post in this thread, ie added to it at the bottom.

 

[Maggie]

I'm not sure that the opinions of the divers who participate in this forum are a fair reflection of the scuba community as a whole. It appears to me that the members of this forum are, for the majority, serious divers who are well informed, who want to keep up to date and are willing and eager to learn more. The problem, as I see it, are the hundreds of divers who do the open water course, consider themselves qualified and never return for further training. I did a resort course first (cmas*), this included one pool sessions of about one hour, very little theory (about two hours), no manual to read, and six open water dives. At the end of it I was hooked but had no real knowledge at all and abysmal skills. Did I consider myself qualified? Yes, initially, but NO when I got home,got the manuals and realised what had been missed out. How do you encourage people to complete further training? Maybe the Open Water Course should not be followed by certification but by "L plates" which would be followed by part one certification after the Advanced Course and full certification after completion of Rescue, First Aid,O2 Admin assessments and proof of a minimum of logged dives.

 

[DameDykker]

I know this is a bit off the original subject (sorry Jon) but this also makes me think of all the certified people (of many levels) that dives once a year or maybe less. They have a C-cart and maybe a garrage full of equipment (serviced or not) and still think on them selfes as divers. And of course for thier one dive a year they want to go to that famous deep wreck!

In my opinion there should be some minimum numbers of dives to mainain certification level. I think that we (the diving community) could learn a lot from the way that privat pilots and sail plane pilots does it. For a private licence you need some 10 flights a year to maintain the certification (old rules - I don't now the new rules). Sail plane pilots are also more and more geografic restricted depending on the type and amount of flying done.

The diving equivalent could be to make five dives a year to maitain c-level. And then attach depth requirements for deeper dives. E.G. you can't dive the wreck at 30m if you havn't done maybe tree >20m dives within the last ½ year?

There are of course many ways to put sucht requirements together. However, I think we need to do something along those lines or face govermantal regulations sooner or later. With the big headlines that diver accidents get somebody might very well demand that: Something should be done!!

DSAO

And Terkel: Tak for lån af sæbekassen! (translation: thank you for borrowing me your soabbox)

 

[Walter]

Dame, while there are no "official" restrictions as you recommend, many operators do have waivers to complete which includes date of last dive and sometimes date of last dive beyond a certain depth. If that last deep dive was more than (6 months or a year depending on the operator) ago you are required to make the dive with an instructor. Of course you could put down false information, but log books are easily faked too.

WWW™

 

[DameDykker]

Yes, some (most I hope) do that. However, I also think that it should be stressed that YOU ARE NOT A DIVER if you do NOT dive. This would also tell newbies that your education havn't finished once you get that OW. And in the clubs it would be much easier to refuse that old hand that you rather like but hwo shouldn't be diving this dive. Or how do you handle a situation like that in the clubs?

DSAO

 

[Walter]

Well, I have mixed feelings on this entire subject. I believe in assumption of risk. As an adult (some might say old fart), I am capable of making my own decisions assuming I have enough information. I believe in telling folks what the situation is and giving advice as to IMHO should they attempt this dive or not. OTOH, I believe that decision is strictly up to the diver. Due to the possibility of lawsuits, I can certainly understand why this can be impractical from a self preservation view point.

I hate the very concept of "SCUBA Police." The main purpose of which is to protect operators from undertrained divers. A better solution would be to do a better job of training divers.

WWW™

 

[turnerjd]

Walter,

You want to work on an assumption of risk basis, however, not all countries in the world allow legal waivers etc.

In the UK, if I am the more qualified diver, I have a legal duty of care to ANYONE I dive with, and that duty of care can not be waved, like with the PADI waivers. If they screw up, legally I have to help. If I screw up, then not only am I in trouble with potential law suits from parents / relatives, but also from prosecution by the police etc.. if I don't do everything possible to help. I have to help untill my efforts would 'manifestly put my life in grave danger' - ie I have to do everything bar kill myself to help them. This doesn't just apply to the people I am diving with. If I am busy, and don't see other divers having difficulties (nothing to do with me, or the group I am with), then I still have the same duty of care.

I would like to see much better diver education, as I see FAR TOO OFTEN people diving with substandard skills for the conditions they are diving in. However, often they do not have enough knowledge to know that they are a risk to themselves and others. By simply being in the same location as them I have a duty of care to these people as well.

Whilst it might work in the US to say 'he knew the risks... and he signed this waiver' this doesn't work in a lot of countries, where there is a statuatory duty of care.

The PADI style system works well when under US law, but the actual responsibility on DM's and above under other legal systems is much greater. Certainly in the UK, the waivers are about as much use as a chocolate teapot, they at best can be considered as an acknowledgement that they are doing something dangerous.

I think that to change the mentality of a lot of divers needs a completely new approach to diving, however, it is very hard to reconcile a comercially orientated approach with a significant raising of training standards. The idea of scuba police is not a nice one, but, some form of system is needed to allow people to know their experience, dive within it, and gain the relevant experience under guidance untill they are capable of making sensible decisions for themselves.

Some form of 'mentoring' system would do this nicely, but there will always be a significant element that believe in the 'assumption of risk' attitude. Personally I think that perhaps after a period of mentored diving people should be able to take responsibility for themselves, but only when they have experienced enough diving to know what they know, and what they don't know.

Jon T