A question for newly qualified divers...........

[Warhammer]

I too felt kinda ripped off when I took the PADI Advanced Course. But then again, I wasn't expecting too much out of it to start with and mainly done it because it's required for alot of dives that I might wish to do. Leaves me wandering just when does training get down to business. And too be honest about it, I didn't feel like a better diver after completing the course. And I thought that was the whole point of continuing training. But I guess that goes back to the saying, "The class is only as good as the instructor who teaches it". As a result, this time I'm choosing my instructor more wisely. But I guess I'm different from the norm as far instructor qualities go. I want one that won't hesitate to tell me where I'm lacking, work with me to improve those areas, demands perfection, and ultimately not certify me unless I've got it right, not just good enough. The ones I've had so far just went through the motions and issued cards. Maybe that's what is expected by the majority, but not by me.

 

[MrMrEZG]

but I would change a thing. I am a padi DM and I have just enroller in an IDC. I feel that I will never have learned enough.


and tomcat;
yes PADI does do audits on their instructors they callit "quality assurance". I first thought that this was a myth until my rescue course when i received a QA survey. So appearantly they do check up on their inst.

 

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by Iguana Don
Jon,
In your earlier post you said that if you are the most qualified diver you have a legal responsibility to the other divers, no matter what.

So, if you are on a boat with 6 other divers and you are the most experienced, you are liable for all? If you are AOW and they are all OW?
ID

That pretty much sums it up.

Provided you act within your training you are pretty safe, but in your situation of 1 AOW and several other OW there would probably be repercussions from the lack of any rescue training. It works in that the most qualified person has an implicit duty of care to make sure that people aren't messing things up. Simply because they are the most qualified.

So, if I was an AOW person, and took a load of cash off a group of (OW) friends to cover the cost of diving for a day, then as part of my duty of care is the provision of an acceptable standard of safety. If nothing happened, then nobody knows, and there is no problem. However, if, as a result of what we do, someone dies, as we have no O2 / Rescue divers whatever, I am looking at a charge of manslaughter. Now, as a DM, if I tried to rescue them etc.. then it is just a tragic accident, provided I act within my training.

Clubs get round this by ensuring on their boats they have suitably qualified people, usually someone qualified to handle to boat (the cox), and someone to run the diving (the dive marshal) onboard.

This pretty much sums up one of the mpain differences between Europe and the US as I see it. The US idea is that people are pretty much responsible for themselves (hence you have 'good samaritan' laws to protect people that actually help others), whereas, in europe, the general idea is that upto the level of your qualification in whatever field of study, you have a responsibility to society in general. A good example of this is that we don't have the good samaritan laws to protect people, we have the legal duty of care. Provided you act within your training, then you are discharging your duty of care, and even if the result is non optimal (eg someone dies) you are safe from any sort of prosecution (crown, or civil). This is a gross generalisation, and apologies to those people that don't agree


Jon T

 

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by MrMrEZG
I am a padi DM and I have just enroller in an IDC.

yes PADI does do audits on their instructors they callit "quality assurance". I first thought that this was a myth until my rescue course when i received a QA survey. So appearantly they do check up on their inst.

MrMrEZG

Before I left the UK, I was in a club, and all our Qualifications were done through PADI. In the 5 years I was there, we probably put 300 cards (minimum) through the system. It was something of an in joke that none of the people in the club had ever recieved a QA questionaire.

This had been going on for some time prior to me being there, so probably in 8 or 9 years and about 500 certs, no-one got a QA questionaire.

You are the first person that I have heard of to receive one of these elusive forms.

Jon T

 

[tomcat]

MrMrEZG,

I know about these forms as well. Not sure if NAUI has them, let's just say that the economics of the situation is one where an instructor weighs the risk of getting caught vs the extra effort that he needs to put in for every single class that he teaches. With odds like that, no wonder people are behaving as though there were no audit.

What I would suggest (may not be cost efficient at this point), is to ensure that for every x number of divers that each and every instructor certifies, he will be audited at least y number of times.

That way, an instructor knows that he can run but he cannot hide forever.

tomcat

 

[MrMrEZG]

just as i said it appears that PADI is checking. now since my last post i have checked and i also received a QA survey with my DM packet(i did not fill it out). so that is 2 surveys for 5 cards.

All that i know the QA program is random. i don't know if PADI Americas is the only PADI office that does the QA survey.

 

[turnerjd]

PADI International have always said they do it randomly, unless they suspect there is a problem, when they then send them out to newly certified students more frequently.

Did you do both Q's with the same instructor??????????

Jon T

 

[Walter]

Jon,

You said, "So, if I was an AOW person, and took a load of cash off a group of (OW) friends to cover the cost of diving for a day, then as part of my duty of care is the provision of an acceptable standard of safety."

What if you didn't take the cash, but one of the OW divers did?

Another hypothetical question for you. It is possible (and quite likely) for an AOW diver with 9 dives to be diving with an OW diver with hundreds of dives. Who would be responsible for whom?

Concerning sending questionaires to students, I believe most agencies do this to one degree or another. I could be mistaken, but I believe YMCA sends one out to every student. Every time I've ever asked a former student, they've confirmed they received one.

WWW™

 

[turnerjd]

Walter,

The principle that money has changed hands actually brings about an explicit rather than implicit DOC. Certainly, as a DM, irrespective of money changeing hands I have a duty of care (implicit if no money, explicit if money changes hands)

As for the AOW person, I think that there would still be an implicit DOC, however, as they have no rescue training they can hardly be expected to perform miracles. If the OW talkes the money, then they are exposing themselves to a DOC in that they are 'organising' it, and if anything happened, they failed in their DOC to ensure there were adequate facilities.

It is a very grey area of law, The DOC rules are applied in the case of an accident to determine who was negligent / whatever. You can't be prosecuted for not performing your DOC unless something else happens, like in the example I gave earlier. However, performing your DOC should protect you from presecution. So, if as a DM I do everything by the book, and someone still dies, then I can't be charged with murder/manslaughter. If However, it can be proved that in not performing my DOC (eg by ignoring people that weren't in my group) that I either caused, or worsend the outcome either by not going by the book, or by ignoring a situation I can then be prosecuted.

I suspect that there are a number of interpretations of the law, and how it gets applied depends on the Crown Prosecutor, and whether they got out of the bed on the wrong side on the day they take a particular decision.


Jon T

 

[WetDane]

Well, I have ended up going back to the SSI shop for my AOW - it is not taught as a single class but rather as 4 individual classes with classroom sessions and 2 dives for each - that adds up to 8 dives and around 6 hours of classroom - I think. Also - I know the instructor and trust him - the PADI class I looked at did not have any classroom otehr than "get the book and read it"...

I looked through the NAUI site and read some of the fine print - they ESTIMATE 6 hours of classroom time, but this may vary depending on location - I think it is possible that some training facilities are very liberal with the interpretation of that statement...

I'll end up paying a bit more - but I think I'll also learn a lot more.

Cheers,
Terkel