A list of instuction going over and above the minimum training standards...

[Peter Guy]

I didn't think I would respond to this because I really disagreed with the basic assumption of this thread -- but I feel I must respond now if only because my dear wife has "used my name in vain."

There is an assumption that I believe exists for PADI courses that they aren't really comprehensive enough. I believe that is wrong. When taught to the fullest, it is my belief that PADI courses are extremely thorough -- especially the "Specialties" that so often are dismissed as fluff. One case-in-point is the PADI Boat Specialty. IF the instructor actually follows the whole syllabus, the student will learn a LOT about boats and diving from a boat -- including boat handling and care.

So when the question comes up about teaching "over and above standards" within the PADI system, I contend one doesn't need to at all. All the instructor needs to do is to teach the WHOLE syllabus that is provided and there will be a great course.

(Off topic (sort of) -- my "Techreational Workshop" caused my LDS some huge concern when first proposed but PADI "blessed it" in no small part because it was NOT a course. I attempted to teach it once and the response was so underwhelming I haven't tried since -- but maybe soon.)

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

You can't go wrong with the GUE fundamental course. Pretty much all the instructors teach at the levels you seek.
Here is a description and all the details you seek.

Well yes you can go wrong here. Do pick your instructor carefully and be sure his/her goals are compateble with yours. GUE does have well defined and realtively high standards which is a big start. The instruction to get there does not always come through however.

 

[nimoh]

Well yes you can go wrong here. Do pick your instructor carefully and be sure his/her goals are compateble with yours. GUE does have well defined and realtively high standards which is a big start. The instruction to get there does not always come through however.

are you referencing a particular experience where a GUE instructor didn't live up to expectations?

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

GUE only surveys people who pass the course. That is rather like only surveying your satisfied customers and then patting yourself on the back for your good work. If whole classes do not show up for their checkout dives was it the students, the instructor, the site chosen or a combination of all of the above? You would think they would be curious about the classes that do not work out. They could do better.

I really do think they have a lot to offer, but to say “you can’t go wrong” is overly general. As with other classes the instructor does matter. They do have high standards which really is the beginning of doing anything good, and a good curriculum. Anyway fundies may well be the best option for the OP but like any class you should somewhat careful in being sure the class goals and your goals are aligned.

 

[mathauck0814]

GUE only surveys people who pass the course. That is rather like only surveying your satisfied customers and then patting yourself on the back for your good work. If whole classes do not show up for their checkout dives was it the students, the instructor, the site chosen or a combination of all of the above? You would think they would be curious about the classes that do not work out. They could do better.

I really do think they have a lot to offer, but to say “you can’t go wrong” is overly general. As with other classes the instructor does matter. They do have high standards which really is the beginning of doing anything good, and a good curriculum. Anyway fundies may well be the best option for the OP but like any class you should somewhat careful in being sure the class goals and your goals are aligned.

GUE has terrific training, and they turn out some good divers. That said, the divers that they turn out who dive well are those who take the GUE kool-aid with a grain of salt and incorporate aspects of the system into the real world. For every GUE diver who's taken and passed fundies that's gone on to become a great diver, there are twelve hovering in 20 feet of water in a quarry still practicing their S-drills dreaming of the day when they've got enough practice to actually get out there and do a real dive.

 

[supergaijin]

the motivation of people taking Fundies skews the equation a little as well.

I wish all students had the same drive and willingness to learn during their OW courses as they do when they sign up for additional training courses such as Fundies.

 

[TSandM]

That's very true . . . folks who are looking for the kind of training the OP was talking about are a self-selected group.

 

[nimoh]

GUE only surveys people who pass the course. That is rather like only surveying your satisfied customers and then patting yourself on the back for your good work. If whole classes do not show up for their checkout dives was it the students, the instructor, the site chosen or a combination of all of the above? You would think they would be curious about the classes that do not work out. They could do better.

I really do think they have a lot to offer, but to say “you can’t go wrong” is overly general. As with other classes the instructor does matter. They do have high standards which really is the beginning of doing anything good, and a good curriculum. Anyway fundies may well be the best option for the OP but like any class you should somewhat careful in being sure the class goals and your goals are aligned.

I agree that "you can't go wrong" is overly general, although I have read posts on scubaboard by people that failed fundamentals, and still claim it was the best course they ever had. Of course this is hardly qualifies as a survey of divers that didn't pass

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

GUE has terrific training, and they turn out some good divers. That said, the divers that they turn out who dive well are those who take the GUE kool-aid with a grain of salt and incorporate aspects of the system into the real world. For every GUE diver who's taken and passed fundies that's gone on to become a great diver, there are twelve hovering in 20 feet of water in a quarry still practicing their S-drills dreaming of the day when they've got enough practice to actually get out there and do a real dive.

In my experience your numbers are a little skewed ... but there are certainly those like you describe. But I think it has more to do with who they're diving with after the class than because of what they instructor told them during the class.

It's been about eight years since I went through Fundies, but back then most people neither passed nor failed the first time through class. They got a "provisional" ... which means that there was some aspect of the training that the instructor wanted them to improve on before they would receive their certification. At the end of class, each student would have a one-on-one debrief with the instructor, who would go over what he felt were their strengths and weaknesses ... and give them some tips on what and how to practice to improve on the weaknesses. At that point the student would go off for a time and work on those things, and then do a re-evaluation when they felt they were ready, and could schedule it with the instructor. This is where the motivation for all that practice comes from. The majority of these students would go diving, and work on skills either at the beginning or end of the dive, in shallow water. Some got a bit more carried away and would devote all of their underwater time to skills practice ... but these were a minority, and usually those were people who either weren't secure with themselves or were "adopted" by the kool-aid drinkers who would convince them they weren't fit for open water until they could hold a stop within a few inches and their trim to within a few degrees. I've met a few of them, and unfortunately I think all that focus on practice-till-perfection inhibits their development as divers.

I once did a dive with one of those on an airplane in Lake Washington that sits in about 150 ffw. It's a very basic Tech 1 dive. The guy was a very good diver and a fine dive buddy ... someone I really enjoyed diving with. After the dive he told me he'd been practicing for two years to do that dive.

Now that's just sad ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[nimoh]

In my experience your numbers are a little skewed ... but there are certainly those like you describe. But I think it has more to do with who they're diving with after the class than because of what they instructor told them during the class.

It's been about eight years since I went through Fundies, but back then most people neither passed nor failed the first time through class. They got a "provisional" ... which means that there was some aspect of the training that the instructor wanted them to improve on before they would receive their certification. At the end of class, each student would have a one-on-one debrief with the instructor, who would go over what he felt were their strengths and weaknesses ... and give them some tips on what and how to practice to improve on the weaknesses. At that point the student would go off for a time and work on those things, and then do a re-evaluation when they felt they were ready, and could schedule it with the instructor. This is where the motivation for all that practice comes from. The majority of these students would go diving, and work on skills either at the beginning or end of the dive, in shallow water. Some got a bit more carried away and would devote all of their underwater time to skills practice ... but these were a minority, and usually those were people who either weren't secure with themselves or were "adopted" by the kool-aid drinkers who would convince them they weren't fit for open water until they could hold a stop within a few inches and their trim to within a few degrees. I've met a few of them, and unfortunately I think all that focus on practice-till-perfection inhibits their development as divers.

I once did a dive with one of those on an airplane in Lake Washington that sits in about 150 ffw. It's a very basic Tech 1 dive. The guy was a very good diver and a fine dive buddy ... someone I really enjoyed diving with. After the dive he told me he'd been practicing for two years to do that dive.

Now that's just sad ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

we all dive to have fun, and if someone enjoys practicing, there is nothing wrong with that.

I'll agree that practicing for 2 years to make a dive is a little overkill, however, if they set that goal as an OW diver, and then took two years taking classes and practicing to get tec certified, it makes a lot more sense.

I sometimes have more fun on the practice range than I do playing a game of golf.