A drag issue : to bungee wings or not to bungee

[Gombessa]

Extra propulsion when your scooter fails.

Or escape from oncoming jetski?

 

[Lenaxia]

Again, I'll say it.

1) There is no need or good reason to bungee a wing.

2) they look pretty damn silly

3) There is no reason to vent that wing at jet-speed.

But there's no good reason not to, otherwise we wouldn't be doing it.

 

[ucfdiver]

But there's no good reason not to, otherwise we wouldn't be doing it.

Typically people have a reason when they do things...

 

[LiteHedded]

Typically people have a reason when they do things...

bingo

 

[Lenaxia]

And the same could be said about both sides of this argument. This entire debate boils down to preference. Honestly lets just agree to disagree.

 

[LiteHedded]

And the same could be said about both sides of this argument. This entire debate boils down to preference. As NetDoc has said, most of the reasoning behind not using bungees stems mainly in the hypothetical.

except dan and george saw it with their own eyes. people gloss over that for some reason.

 

[danvolker]

except dan and george saw it with their own eyes. people gloss over that for some reason.

For the purposes of recreational diving, I just don't like the bungees, but I am not going to suggest they are dangerous to typical warm water divers.

The incident I spoke of before, with Jane Orenstein, this was a tech death NOT caused by bungees, but one where the bungees restricted the wing so much that we could not raise her with it...
I have a much more horendous incident, you could pull up on Aquanaut.com techdiver list , at Aquanaut Mailing List Archive Service
We had a first hand account from the lone survivor, indicating that Mike Elkins, the student, could not keep his bungee wing system inflated enough...and was virtuaLLY bouncing along the bottom, blowing huge amounts of air trying to keep up with the instructor, Andre Smith. This particular dive, a Triple Death Tragedy, was one of the worst CF's ever in South Florida, perhaps in all of tech diving.
They were carrying heavy tanks, thick wetsuits ( which were almost useless at the 54 degree bottom layer that day), and using bungee wings which were too tight( or whatever excuse a bungee lover would use for the bungees preventing full inflation). By the account of the survivor, Elkins ran out of air, Andre could not get him off the bottom, and sent up a lift bag which got away from him.
Detective John Claypool, also on the dive, and a good diver, had begun ascending as directed bgy Andre, with the survivor, but when they realized Andre was not coming up, Claypool went back down for him, and never made it back up.
All were having bouyancy issues, all were too heavy, all were very cold and likly loosing muscular power.
This was such a tragic event, and so preventable, it was one of the key forces which led to George and I becoming very vocal about the changes that had to come to the fledgling tech dive training world.
Did the bungees kill the 3 divers? Certainly not by themselves, but they were a big problem. If the wings had been able to provide sufficient lift, the entire outcome may have been totally different. Horribly bad judgement though, is what I would say was the worst part of what went wrong....

1. Elkins was way to new a diver, with less than 100 dives.
2. The divers were geared in a manner not intelligent for the Palm Beach area--and area know to occaisionally have extremely cold bottom temperatures.Wetsuits were not feasible, unless the group was willing to abort the moment they discovered it was way below 70 degrees..in this case, this was not done.
3. Bouyancy shift was extreme, with heavy steels and thick wetsuit, the lift requirement at the bottom was excessive.
4. Bungee wings had been blasted prior to this on the internet, but this was one of the first times that the concept of bungees got tied directly to multiple deaths. Were they tied to tight? Was it the below 55 degree water that changed the elastic properties of the bungees--did this make them tighter? Why screw around with the bungees when your ability to get off the bottom could be compromised?
5. The dive computer worn by the survivor showed a sea saw pattern before the emergency ascent, and a huge sea saw issue durring--indicating serious problems with bouyancy...Which he admitted.

While all this condemns bungees for tech, this means next to nothing for most recreational dives..as I have said before, for recreational, the bungees are more of a fashion statement. Each of us should be able to swim our single tank system off the bottom, even with a complete bc/wing failure. If we can't, the tank chosen or exposure suit and weighting system is just not cool for recreational.

Regards,
DanV

 

[LiteHedded]

For the purposes of recreational diving, I just don't like the bungees, but I am not going to suggest they are dangerous to typical warm water divers.

The incident I spoke of before, with Jane Orenstein, this was a tech death NOT caused by bungees, but one where the bungees restricted the wing so much that we could not raise her with it...
I have a much more horendous incident, you could pull up on Aquanaut.com techdiver list , at Aquanaut Mailing List Archive Service
We had a first hand account from the lone survivor, indicating that Mike Elkins, the student, could not keep his bungee wing system inflated enough...and was virtuaLLY bouncing along the bottom, blowing huge amounts of air trying to keep up with the instructor, Andre Smith. This particular dive, a Triple Death Tragedy, was one of the worst CF's ever in South Florida, perhaps in all of tech diving.
They were carrying heavy tanks, thick wetsuits ( which were almost useless at the 54 degree bottom layer that day), and using bungee wings which were too tight( or whatever excuse a bungee lover would use for the bungees preventing full inflation). By the account of the survivor, Elkins ran out of air, Andre could not get him off the bottom, and sent up a lift bag which got away from him.
Detective John Claypool, also on the dive, and a good diver, had begun ascending as directed bgy Andre, with the survivor, but when they realized Andre was not coming up, Claypool went back down for him, and never made it back up.
All were having bouyancy issues, all were too heavy, all were very cold and likly loosing muscular power.
This was such a tragic event, and so preventable, it was one of the key forces which led to George and I becoming very vocal about the changes that had to come to the fledgling tech dive training world.
Did the bungees kill the 3 divers? Certainly not by themselves, but they were a big problem. If the wings had been able to provide sufficient lift, the entire outcome may have been totally different. Horribly bad judgement though, is what I would say was the worst part of what went wrong....

1. Elkins was way to new a diver, with less than 100 dives.
2. The divers were geared in a manner not intelligent for the Palm Beach area--and area know to occaisionally have extremely cold bottom temperatures.Wetsuits were not feasible, unless the group was willing to abort the moment they discovered it was way below 70 degrees..in this case, this was not done.
3. Bouyancy shift was extreme, with heavy steels and thick wetsuit, the lift requirement at the bottom was excessive.
4. Bungee wings had been blasted prior to this on the internet, but this was one of the first times that the concept of bungees got tied directly to multiple deaths. Were they tied to tight? Was it the below 55 degree water that changed the elastic properties of the bungees--did this make them tighter? Why screw around with the bungees when your ability to get off the bottom could be compromised?
5. The dive computer worn by the survivor showed a sea saw pattern before the emergency ascent, and a huge sea saw issue durring--indicating serious problems with bouyancy...Which he admitted.

While all this condemns bungees for tech, this means next to nothing for most recreational dives..as I have said before, for recreational, the bungees are more of a fashion statement. Each of us should be able to swim our single tank system off the bottom, even with a complete bc/wing failure. If we can't, the tank chosen or exposure suit and weighting system is just not cool for recreational.

Regards,
DanV

agreed.

 

[Scott L]

One of my tenets is not to question those at the top of their field. When folks like JJ, Tobin, Dan and others present a logical case for or against a equipment selection I simply comply until any future revisions by same or others who have reached similar stature...

 

[LiteHedded]

One of my tenets is not to question those at the top of their field. When folks like JJ, Tobin, Dan and others present a logical case for or against a equipment selection I simply comply until any future revisions by same or others who have reached similar stature...

I'm glad that wasn't one of their tenets