A divers arrogance and ignorance

[mars2u]

Here's a pic of Andre the DM...so if you ever run into him say Hi. BTW...some here have stated that he might have been narced at 250 ft.....doubtful...the crew is so cool that they're narced on the surface....lol

He never told me where he got his mask....hmmm...the purge valve is impressive though...very natural, as though you don't even have a mask on...lol

 

[MikeFerrara]

Taking excessive risks in a rescue attempt isn't heroic and may in fact complicate the situation, divide resources and put the victem and others at additional risk.

A while back there was a local dive team member who was out on the town on a Saturday with his yong son in the car when a call came on the radio. Two people had fallen through the ice on a local pond. The officer responded and without waiting for other team members entered the water alone and without lines under the ice. He recieved a medal. I would have fired him without hesitation. The people under the ice had very little chance of survival and in fact didn't survive. IMO, his actions more closely resembled those of a panic stricken amateur than a trained pro. The risk was great and in fact fool hardy and the benifit was nonexistant.

In this case the DM pulled it off. The DM made a decission in what I'm sure was a short amount of time and it worked out. I still think I would have done it different even though it might not have worked out as well for some.

 

[cornfed]

Zagnut once bubbled...

When a fireman runs into a burning building to rescue someone, we don't call him stupid...we call him a hero.

That is different. I can think of many situations when a FF went to rescue someone and they are now called "stupid" because they died. Some of these people are individually responsible for changes to OSHA and NFPA regulations.

This DM is a hero.

The agruement isn't about what to call him. It's about what he was required to do. That said, reading Mike Ferrara's post I tend to agree with him.

I have mixed opinions on this matter. I'm not sure I understand the DMs responsiblity to the divers. Mostly because they had one DM in the front and one DM bringing up the rear. It sounds like they assumed more responsiblity then simply showing a bunch of certifed divers where the dive site was.

Cornfed

 

[Zagnut]

Daring, risky, but used as a last resort.

Sounds like this DM's rescue to me. I didn't say it was a wise choice... just heroic.

When I used the fireman example and I said "we" I didn't mean the fireman's peers. I meant the general public. When something like that happens, It's all over the news. Hero!.. and it's true. It is heroic..maybe not wise, but heroic.

The firefighters that kept going into the Twin Towers on 9/11....I remember the media calling them heros, but I don't recall the media ever calling them stupid.

If I had been in this DM's fins, I probably would have attempted the rescue, but realistically, I probably would have chickened out and turned back before reaching him...and when I say "if I had been in his fins" I mean if I had his experience, training, and knowledge of how best to live through a situation like that. I don't really know what I would do if I were him becase I don't have that training yet. I do know that if I were me (which I am), and I was on this dive, I would NOT have gone after him, even if he were my buddy.

The DM acted heroically....but I would not want to be one of his loved ones.

I'm not disagreeing with Mike. I'm just saying there are valid arguements for both options.

 

[diverbrian]

cornfed once bubbled...



I have mixed opinions on this matter. I'm not sure I understand the DMs responsiblity to the divers. Mostly because they had one DM in the front and one DM bringing up the rear. It sounds like they assumed more responsiblity then simply showing a bunch of certifed divers where the dive site was.

Actually, that is standard procedure in my manual for leading large groups. The idea is that if someone has a "normal" problem (ie. equipment, stress starting) that one DM can pick it up and help the person to the point of taking them to the surface if necessary and the other one can be the dive guide and possibly deal with the rest of the group if the "rescue" will be a problem (as the lead DM did in this case). It is not required, but is helpful. At the very least the other DM can keep "tabs" on the other divers so that if a search is needed somebody has a good idea where a diver or buddy team was actually last seen in the confusion that a "rescue" sometimes entails.

It is not intended to make up for divers who flagrantly disregard the safety briefing and put the DM's and rest of the group at risk. DM's are not scuba police. If the diver chooses to do something extremely stupid once in the water, that is the diver's responsibility.

I guess the comparison would be that the Coast Guard will go into worse than average conditions to rescue a boater who ignores their warnings because the Coast Guard has extra training for this. But if the conditions are too bad, the Coast Guard does not have to run EXTREME risk to themselves to go get someone. The boater took that responsibility when he went out. It is a matter in either case of calculating the acceptable risk (in this case extreme)/ reward ratio.

In this case, the DM went down and ran a legitimate risk of getting himself tox'ed out while being narced got lucky. I honestly can't say if I would or would not have done the same in spite of my tough talk earlier. But, it wouldn't have been required or one of my brightest moments if I did. It would have been me not wanting to see someone die. That is all that it would have been and it would go against all the common sense that I was ever taught.

 

[Dryglove]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Taking excessive risks in a rescue attempt isn't heroic and may in fact complicate the situation, divide resources and put the victem and others at additional risk.

A while back there was a local dive team member who was out on the town on a Saturday with his yong son in the car when a call came on the radio. Two people had fallen through the ice on a local pond. The officer responded and without waiting for other team members entered the water alone and without lines under the ice. He recieved a medal. I would have fired him without hesitation. The people under the ice had very little chance of survival and in fact didn't survive. IMO, his actions more closely resembled those of a panic stricken amateur than a trained pro. The risk was great and in fact fool hardy and the benifit was nonexistant.

Maybe he thought he could save the vitims. Im sure he realized the risk he was taking....hopefully. Im sure the family appreciates his efforts. Im sure he broke every dept policy doing what he did but dont condemn him for it. Maybe he thought that if he waited for the team to assemble it would no doubt be a body recovery. Maybe if it was your family in that pond you would see it from a different perspective and not bash him for his actions.

Take a look at the special forces soldier who is outnumbered and outgunned in every conflict. The soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies. Take a look at somalia and afghanistan. There were a lot of heroic actions against impossible odds. I would hardly say they acted like amateurs and not trained pros.

 

[TCDiver1]

A good friend once described the criteria to get the MOH as follows:
A soldier performs an extraordinary act that few can understand, explain or would realistically perform themselves. I always liked that explanation and think it applies here.

I believe true heroism could rarely be called intelligent. It's easy to call it stupid, much harder to consider an intelligent individual who knows better, making the decision to put themselves in danger to help another. It happens every day.

I know for my part if that was family or friend down there at 250, i doubt you could stop me from trying to help. I suspect it would be similar for others who have stated they would not go to that depth to help. Now it gets muddier for me if i don't know the person. Sounds callous but its true for me.

The main point i was trying to make in an earlier post was that no diver should expect the Dm to help them out of a bind at any cost and therefore try something they know is wrong ... like poppin down to 250 just for giggles.

 

[MikeFerrara]

lal7176 once bubbled...



Maybe he thought he could save the vitims. Im sure he realized the risk he was taking....hopefully. Im sure the family appreciates his efforts. Im sure he broke every dept policy doing what he did but dont condemn him for it. Maybe he thought that if he waited for the team to assemble it would no doubt be a body recovery. Maybe if it was your family in that pond you would see it from a different perspective and not bash him for his actions.

Well, what if other team members got there and had to attempt to rescue him as well and that cused the search for the original victems to be delayed or otherwise less effective? How would the families feel then. What if another officer was hurt trying to get him out of trouble? How would their family feel?

Also if you were familiar with the level of training dive team members around here have you would not at all be sure that he understood the risk he was taking. In all likelyhood (I don't know for certain but it would fit the local patern) the only ice dives he had to date were the ones he did in his PADI ice diver class. That would be three, BTW.

Even if there was a way to justify a solo search, IMO there is no way to justify not using a line under the ice. His chances of finding the whole again were no better than a coin toss and likely no where as good.

 

[Dryglove]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Well, what if other team members got there and had to attempt to rescue him as well and that cused the search for the original victems to be delayed or otherwise less effective? How would the families feel then. What if another officer was hurt trying to get him out of trouble? How would their family feel?

Also if you were familiar with the level of training dive team members around here have you would not at all be sure that he understood the risk he was taking. In all likelyhood (I don't know for certain but it would fit the local patern) the only ice dives he had to date were the ones he did in his PADI ice diver class. That would be three, BTW.

Even if there was a way to justify a solo search, IMO there is no way to justify not using a line under the ice. His chances of finding the whole again were no better than a coin toss and likely no where as good.

You are right as he was very foolish for going under the ice with no line and should consider himself very luck for not being a victim of a body recovery himself. If for some reason he didnt make it and drown it would just be one more body to recover as im sure the victims would more than likely be dead by the time they assembled enough members to perform a proper recovery. It appears to me the only person he put at risk at the time was himself. If he put others in danger by his actions(which he didnt) then i would say what he did was beyond stupid. If the victims had been under the ice several hours i would also agree he would be very foolish to attempt a recovery by himself. We could "what if" this all day long.


Ill just say that in my opinion what he did was very heroic if he thought the victims had a chance of survival. I also find it very disturbing that the dive team and its members fail to seek the proper training which i know you have offered your services to them several times. Maybe someday the reality will hit home after they lose a few more members from severe lack of training. Its sad people have to lose their lives before something will be done. Even that doesnt guarantee things will change.

 

[cornfed]

lal7176 once bubbled...

Maybe he thought he could save the vitims. Im sure he realized the risk he was taking....hopefully. Im sure the family appreciates his efforts. Im sure he broke every dept policy doing what he did but dont condemn him for it. Maybe he thought that if he waited for the team to assemble it would no doubt be a body recovery. Maybe if it was your family in that pond you would see it from a different perspective and not bash him for his actions.

If that guy had died during his solo attempt we wouldn't be here calling him a hero, we would be calling him a dumbass.

Cornfed