A divers arrogance and ignorance

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"Keeping track of morons is part of the job."

It most certainly is not!

It's attitudes like this that promote the lack of decent standards championed by some agencies. "They may not know what they're doing, but a DM will baby sit them on all their dives." That's a dangerous attitude and it gets people killed.
 
cornfed once bubbled...


What would you have done?

Cornfed

Good question.

I hope that if I was supervising a group I could prevent him from getting that far in the first place (prevention)

If not I would wave good buy and send flowers to his family. Just in case he got lucky and made it back though I would try to have some one in the water to assist, hopefully with extra gas for decompression. I would also have the O2 out, all others out of the water and have the boat preped for dealing with an injured diver.

But I wouldn't go to 250 on a single tank especially with air in it.
 
Walter once bubbled...

"What would you have done?"

I would have notified his next of kin.

I'm not say I would have gone after him, but what if you don't? Sooner or later he's going to realize he's out of gas at which point he's going to head for the surface. If he doesn't you have to explain to everyone why one of your charges died. If he does make it, he's going to be bent like a pretzel and you'll have to deal with it.

It's a bad situation all around.

Cornfed
 
He didn't beam down to 250'.

They had a lead DM and a trail DM. Ostensibly for a reason.

They may have had two DMs because tourist behavior in Palau can get random. Perhaps one of them might have noticed the moron somewhere between 100' and 250'.

And yes, I've been a divemaster in Palau.

The best way to handle an emergency is not to let it get that far in the first place. And thats part of the job.
 
A couple of years ago they lost a fellow at the Blue Hole in Belize. The DM had a similar story. After hauling the guy up to "safe" depth twice, the DM decided not to go after him the third time ... they never found the guy's body.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
If it was me...no way I'd go after him. But, you have to know the DM (Andre) and his personality.
1)He told the other DM what was going on.
2)The DM aborted and surfaced with the others and got the O2 ready and dropped the tanks.

I asked Andre what he would have done if the moron had again refused? -In short, he would have left him. Doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure that one out...but at least he made the effort IN HIS MIND. Keep in mind...he could SEE him at depth, had the vis been low it would have been totally different per Andre.

To refer to the previous poster...you are right...he even mentioned it would have looked bad on him had he lost a diver. He also had the utmost confidence in his DM buddy and knew he could count on him to get the O2 tanks dropped.

Now having said all this I again couldn't do it. I would have gone to 120..maybe 130 and tried to get his attention. I wouldn't be a very trusting person in this situation by going deeper. After all I think we should all use our heads. I feel he saved the morons life and when I asked the boat manager about the moron, she pretty much just rolled her eyes.
 
Doc Intrepid once bubbled...
He didn't beam down to 250'.

They had a lead DM and a trail DM. Ostensibly for a reason.

They may have had two DMs because tourist behavior in Palau can get random. Perhaps one of them might have noticed the moron somewhere between 100' and 250'.

And yes, I've been a divemaster in Palau.

The best way to handle an emergency is not to let it get that far in the first place. And thats part of the job.

Doc, you are correct. They always go with 2 unless it's a very small group say 4-5 which happened during the night dive later on in the week. I think they could tell by then if they would have problems with any one diver and felt OK with sending only 1 DM down in this instance.
 
Walter once bubbled...
"Keeping track of morons is part of the job."

It most certainly is not!

It's attitudes like this that promote the lack of decent standards championed by some agencies. "They may not know what they're doing, but a DM will baby sit them on all their dives." That's a dangerous attitude and it gets people killed.

I agree with Walter. A dive professional has his limits. Our DM in Provo had no problem with saying that if you go over the wall with bad buoyancy and start dropping to 6K ft (which he wrote on the white board that he did his dive briefings on), it was C'Ya. He would be waiting at a safe depth for you. He had a family to come home to at night.

If a CERTIFIED diver chooses to deliberately slip away from the group and put the would be rescuer at risk, that is the CERTIFIED diver's responsibility at some point. This is a reason that we put divers through certification classes. If this guy went out, bought a boat, and did it on his own, he would be just as dead. This is one reason why many of our wreck charters will not provide DM's. I have read a statement by a boat captain that I agree with. The effect of it is that if a diver chooses to ignore safety rules and the safety briefing once they are in the water, you can't stop him from doing so.

The other course of action would be to station a DM at some depth to catch divers who wanted to drop below him/her before the individual got down that deep. But again, at what point does the responibility end for the diver himself? When do we quit treating certified divers as children. This is obviously in flagrant disregard for safe diving practices and should be noted as such.

Descending down to where I need an unplanned amount of deco would be nearly as irresponsible on my part as my certification agency does not teach staged decompression diving at all. I doubt that most DM's are taught that kind of gas management as DM's. And if they are, as Mike F. says, it is definitely a bad risk to go that deep on a single eighty and the DM would know it. I am glad that things worked out, but they easily could have been worse.

Another point, many experienced divers (again in Provo) with cameras actually wanted to see the reef. It is very difficult for everybody to see everything when they are huddled in a huge group. This included myself. I was outside the view of the DM much of the dive while I was waiting for a fish to come out and give me a good picture. Our LDS owner (with many moons of diving) saw the DM during the dive twice, just prior to getting into the water and during the safety stop. Most of our divers from Michigan followed the same schedule. If we would have done something really stupid, we were on our own!

I dive Nitrox most of the time, so following him down would have been impossible for me without a serious risk of oxygen toxicity (which is a risk for straight air as well at that depth). I would have taken a course similar to Mike F.'s suggested course and tried to prep the boat for an emergency while hanging tanks down to do the decompression stops. And if the !@!!@#! moron would have made it back in one piece, he would not have been getting in the water again on my watch. If I would have let him back in, then I would have been deficient in my dive leadership. This guy has already proven that he is wild card. He would not do it again on my time, ever!

As far as I'm concerned, if someone wants to intentionally put their life at risk in this way, the phrase to cover that is "I am so sorry for your loss, Mr./Mrs. _______."
 
mars2u once bubbled...
and when I asked the boat manager about the moron, she pretty much just rolled her eyes.

mars2u,
What was the managers name? We had a group on the blue in 2001 and was curious if its the same gal. Can't remember her name but she was a Brit and a nice gal.
 
gedunk once bubbled...


mars2u,
What was the managers name? We had a group on the blue in 2001 and was curious if its the same gal. Can't remember her name but she was a Brit and a nice gal.

If it was 2001 than it was Silvia. She has subsequently left the Big Blue.
Lynne used to be the DM there and is now the boat manager although she did dive with us a few times. IMHO, she's the best diver I've ever met...bar none. 8000+ recorded dives in 10 years... you do the math.
Great personality and loves it when on occassion she gets the arrogant DIR type onboard that starts spouting about how everyone else is doing it wrong (given not all DIR folks are this way). Then she dives with them and does circles around them...pretty much ends the arrogance right there.

You can check out recent pics on my web site...btw, you should consider going back...fantastic crew!!!
 

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